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  #1  
Old 05-06-2015, 02:36 PM
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I have a conference tonight and needs some thoughts and ideas on how I can help parents with this issue.

Issue:

DCG age 4 is having sleep issues. She struggles every night to go to bed, it is a constant fight with the parents, the child sings, tells stories, kicks legs, sounds like does everything to keep herself awake.

this is their bed time routine, they can play from 7-730, then at 730 they read until about 750, brush your teeth, love and hugs, then lights out at 8pm. Child does not fall asleep some nights until almost 11pm because she is doing the above listed activities.

Parents struggle each morning to wake up child, which child is here most days by 730-8:00 at the latest. so def is not getting enough sleep.

The issue here at daycare is that the child is just falling apart and some days can't make it through lunch time. She is so tired that by 11am she is having one melt down after the next and we keep her up until she eats, then falls on her face and sleeps for about 1.5-3 hours. On days that she does not nap, meaning she does not fall asleep, she is a handful in the afternoon. She again will have massive melt downs, crying fits, can't control her emotions at all. this has has been an issue for sometime now.

several months ago I suggested talking with their doc about getting on melatonin which the parents said worked but the doctor told them it had side affects and not to use it long term. so they took her off and now are back to the battle of bed time again.

I told dcp we needed to meet to see how we can deal with this. Our program requires naps. If you don't need a nap, you have out grown our program. This child has all of the signs of still needing a nap and to me it sounds like she is just winning the game of refusing to go to bed.

My suggestion is that they need to try 3 things

sticker chart, you go to sleep by XYZ time, you get a sticker and at the end of the week get _________________.

or tough love- on sunday night if you don't go to bed by xyz time then no preplay or stories the next night and you will earn them. If I have to tell you to go to bed more than once, I take you lovey doll away, each time I have to tell you to go to sleep, you are going to lose something else. This is what I had to do with my daughter, she was a nightmare to put to bed when she was little. did the same stuff.

Or 3, they need to put her to bed at 7 or 730, she is getting over that hump.

I am not too sure what to do here. What else can you guys suggest or what do you think about this situation? Also, the child does not nap on weekends and will still pull the same game of not falling asleep until about 9 or 10 on those nights.

I am about to pull my hair out and so are the parents. they are super awesome people and their child is such a sweetie, but with all this lack of sleep, she is just a handful to take on each day.

OK WHATS YOUR TAKE ON THIS..GIVE IT TO ME....LOL SORRY SO LONG
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:42 PM
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What kind of play are they doing until 7:30? Is it calm quiet play, or is it rowdy play?

The melatonin thing is right, to long of time can lead to side effects. As someone who deals with sleep issues myself, my doctor told me the need for sleep outweighs the side effects, but I am an adult not a child so it may be different.

It sounds to me like this child is doing exactly what you said, playing a game and winning.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:47 PM
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I think I'd discuss any foods she might be having after daycare that might be stimulating, any kind of playing or tv shows that might cause her mind to get all wired up. With some kids, the more tired they are, the more wired they are and it becomes almost impossible to calm themselves down for sleeping.
These are just thoughts so take them as you wish but maybe eliminate the 7-7:30 play time and move her bedtime up earlier, some nice quiet snuggling, favorite calm book, maybe some soft music to set the tone. Dim the lights...that sort of thing.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:47 PM
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What kind of play are they doing until 7:30? Is it calm quiet play, or is it rowdy play?

The melatonin thing is right, to long of time can lead to side effects. As someone who deals with sleep issues myself, my doctor told me the need for sleep outweighs the side effects, but I am an adult not a child so it may be different.

It sounds to me like this child is doing exactly what you said, playing a game and winning.
it is quiet play, not too sure if she plays with her sibling or alone. But dcm did say it's quiet time.....

I did notice that dcm also said that she reads stories to both kids together from 730-750, perhaps there is some wind up going on there too??
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:49 PM
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I think I'd discuss any foods she might be having after daycare that might be stimulating, any kind of playing or tv shows that might cause her mind to get all wired up. With some kids, the more tired they are, the more wired they are and it becomes almost impossible to calm themselves down for sleeping.
These are just thoughts so take them as you wish but maybe eliminate the 7-7:30 play time and move her bedtime up earlier, some nice quiet snuggling, favorite calm book, maybe some soft music to set the tone. Dim the lights...that sort of thing.
it does sound like for one hour before bed there is no screen time, food is a great question to ask.... carbs close to bed time is not a good idea.......
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:52 PM
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Hmm, how old is the sibling? Does her sibling go to bed and sleep right after the story is over?
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:52 PM
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Hmm, how old is the sibling? Does her sibling go to bed and sleep right after the story is over?
sibling is 10 and does not have any sleep issues at all....
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:59 PM
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Does she have some glow in the dark stars or something she could put on her ceiling that dcg could count? Kind of like the Counting sheep to go to sleep idea?

I hope you can all put your heads together and come up with something that will help. I was going to say lots of kids don't need naps at that age but if she's still pulling the same trick on weekends, naps don't sound like they have much to do with her not falling asleep, as much as her stubbornness.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:00 PM
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Does she have some glow in the dark stars or something she could put on her ceiling that dcg could count? Kind of like the Counting sheep to go to sleep idea?

I hope you can all put your heads together and come up with something that will help.
so far i think you ladies have given me some excellent questions to ask the parents tonight. the stars sound like a good idea..

would you be offended if i suggested a tough love approach and said to take things away?
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:03 PM
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I don't think I would take offense at something like that but not sure how it would work. Anything's worth a try, right?
If she's simply being stubborn it may work. If she truly cannot fall asleep for whatever reason, then it might not.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:03 PM
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How is her behavior on Monday morning and behavior on the weekend? Without a nap she falls asleep two hours earlier (9 instead of 11). Maybe in all honesty she doesn't need a nap so when she does have one, it messes her sleep time up. I have one that is almost four and doesn't nap. Lays pretty quiete but most days doesn't nap and doesn't nap on the weekends.
If he does nap, it can be pretty late before he falls asleep. I do keep him because of the laying quietly during naptime.

What time is she picked up in the afternoon? Maybe she is fighting sleep just to spend time with mommy and daddy. If she doesn't get picked up till 5:00 or so she is really spending hardly anytime with her parents. Her naps may give her just enough sleep not to be sleep at 8:00.

Keep us updated!
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:12 PM
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How is her behavior on Monday morning and behavior on the weekend? Without a nap she falls asleep two hours earlier (9 instead of 11). Maybe in all honesty she doesn't need a nap so when she does have one, it messes her sleep time up. I have one that is almost four and doesn't nap. Lays pretty quiete but most days doesn't nap and doesn't nap on the weekends.
If he does nap, it can be pretty late before he falls asleep. I do keep him because of the laying quietly during naptime.

What time is she picked up in the afternoon? Maybe she is fighting sleep just to spend time with mommy and daddy. If she doesn't get picked up till 5:00 or so she is really spending hardly anytime with her parents. Her naps may give her just enough sleep not to be sleep at 8:00.

Keep us updated!
i would agree that she may not need the nap anymore, but on days that she does not nap here she is in nice terms a monster....AND still fights bed time. She is picked up at 515pm each day.

Currently she is almost not making it though lunch time.... In your case the child lays down and does not fall asleep. this child lays down and falls asleep right away. Monday is the worst day and I would love to cut my ears off every monday......lol
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:41 PM
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it does sound like for one hour before bed there is no screen time, food is a great question to ask.... carbs close to bed time is not a good idea.......
And food dyes. They really did affect my DD when she was young, and I keep hearing worse and worse things about them. Some people are just more sensitive than others I think. I could give my son all the dye and sugar he wanted and didn't change him a bit, DD was totally the opposite.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:47 PM
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And food dyes. They really did affect my DD when she was young, and I keep hearing worse and worse things about them. Some people are just more sensitive than others I think. I could give my son all the dye and sugar he wanted and didn't change him a bit, DD was totally the opposite.
another great point...


keep them coming in...i love you guys....i was banging my head on the wall...lol
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:49 PM
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My question would be, what are the parents doing while the child is acting up in bed? Are they going in every couple of minutes to tell her to go to sleep or are they just letting her be in there alone?
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:55 PM
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Have they tried white noise of any kind?
Please do keep us updated.

One of my dcgs just turned 2 yo. She only sleeps 1-1 1/2 hours here but acts like she could've used more sleep. Then last night she tossed and turned for 2 hours and never fell asleep til 9:30. I guess many nights are like that.

I really think some kids' inner clocks don't want to cooperate with what we'd like them to do. The term night owl had to come from somewhere.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:59 PM
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She also maybe getting her second wind! I have seen where some people will be sleeping, take a nap and then between the hours of 6-9 get their second wind. Depending how hard she is sleeping 4 hours between nap and betime may not be enough time for her to be tired again.

Are the parents playing her hard in the two hours she is awake with them or is it rush home, eat dinner, clean up, start getting ready for bed. I honestly don't know any child I have seen except maybe one that was ready for bed at 7:00-8;00. I did'nt even do a bedtime till 9:00 when mine where little because that gave us enough time to dinner, clean up, have some family time and then they were ready for bath and settle down.

They still were getting 9-10 hours of sleep a night by going to bed at 9:00. They took good naps and to this day both of my girls will be in bed by 9:00 or 10 at the latest. The boys will go to bed at a descent hour if its quiet but mostly night owls.
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:04 PM
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She also maybe getting her second wind! I have seen where some people will be sleeping, take a nap and then between the hours of 6-9 get their second wind. Depending how hard she is sleeping 4 hours between nap and betime may not be enough time for her to be tired again.

Are the parents playing her hard in the two hours she is awake with them or is it rush home, eat dinner, clean up, start getting ready for bed. I honestly don't know any child I have seen except maybe one that was ready for bed at 7:00-8;00. I did'nt even do a bedtime till 9:00 when mine where little because that gave us enough time to dinner, clean up, have some family time and then they were ready for bath and settle down.

They still were getting 9-10 hours of sleep a night by going to bed at 9:00. They took good naps and to this day both of my girls will be in bed by 9:00 or 10 at the latest. The boys will go to bed at a descent hour if its quiet but mostly night owls.
I think it would be possible to do a later bed time if it were not for the pure fact that they have to be up so early for the older sibling to start school at 730am, yes our elementary starts that early. and dcm has to be to work at 8, so no way they could sleep in and still get enough sleep.

But i do agree it does sound like maybe not enough face time with dcp.......
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:09 PM
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I think it would be possible to do a later bed time if it were not for the pure fact that they have to be up so early for the older sibling to start school at 730am, yes our elementary starts that early. and dcm has to be to work at 8, so no way they could sleep in and still get enough sleep.

But i do agree it does sound like maybe not enough face time with dcp.......
7:30 AM school? With all the studies saying kids should actually be starting later? Insane. Our HS starts at 7:20 and I don't agree with that.
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:31 PM
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7:30 AM school? With all the studies saying kids should actually be starting later? Insane. Our HS starts at 7:20 and I don't agree with that.
Alot of our elementary schools here go 7:45-3:45 I believe. They don't go on Fridays or have a half a day on Fridays but what a long, long day!
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:36 PM
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Alot of our elementary schools here go 7:45-3:45 I believe. They don't go on Fridays or have a half a day on Fridays but what a long, long day!
Our HS is 7:20-2:20, our elementary is shortly before 9 to around 3 or a bit after. But so many studies now say kids brains work better on later hours.
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:37 PM
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7:30 AM school? With all the studies saying kids should actually be starting later? Insane. Our HS starts at 7:20 and I don't agree with that.
My nieces and nephew start before 8. Full day kinder, no half days ect. They are 5, 7 and 10. They all go to bed around 730 and fall asleep right away and have a hard time getting up in the mornings.
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:43 PM
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My question would be, what are the parents doing while the child is acting up in bed? Are they going in every couple of minutes to tell her to go to sleep or are they just letting her be in there alone?
this is the one question i have not asked and is a GREAT question....
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:52 PM
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Not trying to hijack, but I love how we all come here with different thoughts about something and in the mash we can usually come up with something useful. I love that about this forum.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:14 PM
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Not trying to hijack, but I love how we all come here with different thoughts about something and in the mash we can usually come up with something useful. I love that about this forum.
I completely agree! Brainstorming is always helpful. There are times I get answers here and feel like smacking myself, saying Now why didn't I think of that before?? Or something will be a good reminder for me, or a spine-strengthener.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:24 PM
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I completely agree! Brainstorming is always helpful. There are times I get answers here and feel like smacking myself, saying Now why didn't I think of that before?? Or something will be a good reminder for me, or a spine-strengthener.
Absolutely.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:33 PM
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Not trying to hijack, but I love how we all come here with different thoughts about something and in the mash we can usually come up with something useful. I love that about this forum.
not hijacking at all. I can agree 100% now I have a full list of questions to ask the parents when we meet in a few hours.. I love this form and all of you lovely ladies
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:50 PM
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I would ask how much exercise the child gets. If the dcg runs around outside after dinner or rides her bike she may tire out at bed time.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:52 PM
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I would ask how much exercise the child gets. If the dcg runs around outside after dinner or rides her bike she may tire out at bed time.
another great question...thanks you guys!!!!!
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:59 PM
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I agree with everything that's already been said, but wanted to add from my own experience too.
Diffusing Lavender calms and quiets many children.
I have friends who have had terrible sleepers- hard to calm at bedtime. When they tried Lavender, it was a night/day difference.
When my kids are having a tough day, I add a drop to their lotion and apply it and they always sleep sounder and longer.

Also- there's no need to join any MLM groups to buy good oils.
Native American Nutritionals sells organic oils and they're cheaper than Young Living and DoTerra.
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Old 05-06-2015, 06:31 PM
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My suggestion is that they need to try 3 things

sticker chart, you go to sleep by XYZ time, you get a sticker and at the end of the week get _________________.

or tough love- on sunday night if you don't go to bed by xyz time then no preplay or stories the next night and you will earn them. If I have to tell you to go to bed more than once, I take you lovey doll away, each time I have to tell you to go to sleep, you are going to lose something else. This is what I had to do with my daughter, she was a nightmare to put to bed when she was little. did the same stuff.

Or 3, they need to put her to bed at 7 or 730, she is getting over that hump.
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so far i think you ladies have given me some excellent questions to ask the parents tonight. the stars sound like a good idea..

would you be offended if i suggested a tough love approach and said to take things away?
It may be a little too late for this, but this is my take on taking things, like her lovey, away. When I was little, I had a lovey that I slept with every night. I would have had trouble sleeping without it, so taking it away wouldn't help anything. Though I could see taking it away, saying something like, "When you are quiet/calm, and ready to go to sleep, you can have your lovey back."
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Old 05-06-2015, 09:19 PM
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The lovely thing is a good idea and I suggest something similar to parents.

A little girl had issue sleeping and I recommended the parents to a new pajamas (of her choice) a doll/lovely (of her choice again) like princesses, or even a new pillow case, something special.

Then they had a talk explaining how she is a big girl now and if she gets off bed, or does not stay quiet trying to sleep they will take all away (one by one).

It works very well with her she loves princesses. Her parents told me she was asleep within 30min and did not get off bed during the night since she was in love with her new stuffs.

You dcg might over tired and that could keep her awake, after a few nights of good sleep she should be able to get back to sleeping early! (we had a baby that only slept 8hours per night and no nap, after we sleep train her at daycare to nap, she would sleep 2 hours/nap and 10h/night as she should have at her age).
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Old 05-06-2015, 09:53 PM
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I can't find the article now but I read one recently where the mom struggled getting her to kids to sleep at a decent time. I believe they were around 4-8 yes old. Well after trying multiple things, she decided to educate her kids on sleep. She taught them why we need it, why babies need the most sleep, children need a good amount and adults need the least. She would teach the kids random facts about sleep and they talked about all throughout the day.
It changed bedtime from being negative to a positive thing. It actually made her kids appreciate sleep and they stopped fighting it.

It was a great article. I wish I could find it.
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Old 05-07-2015, 05:13 AM
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Guess I would handle this differently. I can't change what people do in their home, parents need to be parents and figure that part out for themselves. I have in my policies that excessively cranky or crying and the child will be sent home. You have a hard enough job without teaching parents what they should be doing.
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Old 05-07-2015, 06:06 AM
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How did it go?
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:19 PM
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Sorry for the delay in responding. I had to wait until nap time to get back to you guys.

I did go over all of the questions you fine ladies suggested....

So the meeting went very smooth. BUT it just sounds like the parents are not willing to hear her cry.

They said that they tried the tough love method and they could not handle hearing her cry. So instead mom and dad take turns sitting by the bedroom door and if she is not quiet they move away. then they go to the ignore stage.

I asked them is this working, they said NO. So I said are you open to letting her cry it out? After all she is 4 yr old, not 4mo old. they said no.

I told them that unless there was/is a consequence for what she is doing, she is never going to stop the night time games. When she enrolled last year, she played this game of I have to pee 3-4 times during nap time and if I didn't let her go she would wet her pants. I told her you can go before nap and after nap, not during nap, no more games and it stopped dead in its tracks. If she asked me to go pee during nap time, I took away her lovey and within 2-5 min she was out like a light. MS>N don't play that. She understood really quick that I would not play her game.

So I told the parents that since they were not willing to apply consequences and were playing the night time battle I could not help. so in this case since she is so tired and hardly making it through class time, I am going to do one of two things.

Lay her down after 2 melt downs even if its 9am and let her sleep
Or i will call for pick up

either way she is missing her pre-kinder class, which they are paying good money for. When she is here tired out of her mind she can't focus and she can't retain anything taught. Her being overly tired is one of the reasons why she still does not know most of her letters.......

They didn't like those ideas. I did recommend the book called sleepless in america for them to read, lets see how that goes.

I didn't tell them that if they don't fix this issue within the next 30 days, i am going to term. I didn't think I needed to tell them that, i am sure they could already see it.

according to what they are telling me this child is getting about 8-9 hours of sleep each 24hr period and she should be getting at least 10-12. That is a big difference........
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  #37  
Old 05-07-2015, 01:47 PM
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AmyLeigh AmyLeigh is offline
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I had a feeling it was due to the parents' behavior over the child's physical sleep needs. They are really doing a disservice to their little girl and it will only get worse as she gets older.

I have friends that did the same thing with their children. They are now 11 and 8 and never want to get up in the mornings. It's still a daily struggle to get them to sleep before midnight and up early enough to get to school on time. The whole family is late for school, work, church, etc. all the time. They once thought I was horrible for enforcing my children's bedtimes. Now they wonder how my kids get up bright and early and ready for the day on their own.
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:03 PM
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Blackcat31 Blackcat31 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by daycare View Post
BUT it just sounds like the parents are not willing to hear her cry.
It always boils down to that. 99.9% of the time.
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Old 05-08-2015, 02:20 AM
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Josiegirl Josiegirl is online now
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Sadly, I was like that too, as a parent. It's so much easier when it's someone else's child.
Reminds me of when I took my first-born to the pedi for a check-up and we were discussing some problems. The doctor spoke up and asked me 'what are you going to do when he's 16 and wants the car keys?' In other words, be the parent. But I had to chuckle when I learned later down the road that this doctor's 1st child was a lil monster. And I'm thinking...ah ha, so much easier if it's someone else's isn't it??
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