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  #1  
Old 03-13-2015, 04:56 PM
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Default When A Child Is Hurting Sibling At Home, Parents Doing Nothing

I have a sibling set two kids 3 and 4.

the family is very sweet and the older child is the sweetest child I have ever met on the planet earth. Seriously want to clone her a million times.

the younger sister however, is rough and hard to handle at times here at DC.

parents disclosed to me some time ago concerns about how bad the younger sisiters behavior is at home and should they get an eval. I told them they should if they are that concerned, but it does not happen here, I would never allow that kind of behavior.

fast forward to 10 minutes ago today. Older dcg tells me,

Miss N. My sister hurts me all the time at home really bad and mommy and daddy don't do anything about it

Me: Oh no, I am sorry she did that, what happened.
DCG: well yesterday she bite me on my leg, (lifts up dress to show me thigh and OMG its black and blue and you can see full teeth marks)
Me: WOW that looks horrible, your mom and dad know your younger sis did this.
DCG: Yes, she hurts me all the time and mom and dad don't do anything about it, they just tell her to stop it maybe and maybe sometimes they don't do anything.

ME: I hug her and tell her, I am so sorry this is happening to you and I want you to know that I care about you. Can you tell me what else your sister has done.

DCG: lift up shirt and shows me her back, its coverd in red marks.
ME: what happened
DCG; my sister was hitting me with a wand stick we got from Disneyland.

it looked horrible

Me: I hug her again and I tell her, I am going to do everything I can to make sure that no one ever hurts you ever again. I love you and it's not ok for anyone to ever hurt you, even your sister. I am very happy that you were able to tell me. You do need to tell an adult or teacher or friend if someone is hurting you.

OMG YOU GUYS I AM FREAKING OUT....

I full on believe everything she is telling me, she has never lied to me ever.

Of course I will ask the parents about it, but I believe that the dcg that the parents are not protecting her or even doing anything to stop the other child from hurting her.

The younger dcg acts so crazy at drop off and pick up that we have been doing bye-bye outside for almost 8 months.

As soon as the parent goes, the younger one is very good for me. She will have down days, but nothing that even needs a call home.

What should I do. I am full on crying right now about this.....HELP
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Old 03-13-2015, 05:55 PM
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parents will be picking up soon,,,,,,,,,'


any advice on what i should say or how I should approach the matter?
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:35 PM
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This may be too late, but I would just show them the wounds and ask THEM if they are aware of it.

Then, I'd say "so, about that conversation we had about an evaluation, I think perhaps you're right".



Honestly, they could get in a real jam here. Someone could easily see that and think THEY are hurting her, and call CPS.
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:42 PM
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This may be too late, but I would just show them the wounds and ask THEM if they are aware of it.

Then, I'd say "so, about that conversation we had about an evaluation, I think perhaps you're right".



Honestly, they could get in a real jam here. Someone could easily see that and think THEY are hurting her, and call CPS.
Honestly, I might even threaten to call myself. They're not abusing her themselves but they're certainly neglecting her by not ensuring her safety and well being! OMG! My heart aches so bad. I would tell them that something needs to be done, IMMEDIATELY. Whether that be an eval, or what have you, but they need to absolutely never leave them alone ANYMORE until they have a handle on this 100%!!!! That is absolutely heart breaking! That poor baby!

Poor you!!! Sending huge hugs!
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:49 PM
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I'm really not sure what to tell you! Given your description of the injuries, it sounds as though she's being abused by the younger sister. If the parents are allowing it to happen, would it be considered neglect and would it be something that should be reported?

I'll be honest, though, and say that if it were me in this situation, I wouldn't necessarily jump to report it. I'd probably ask the parents if they've seen the injuries and if they know how she got them. I would tell them what the dcg told you and remind them that they mentioned the possibility of having the younger girl evaluated. I'd ask them where they're at with that process. If they haven't made an appointment yet, I would tell them they need to make one as soon as possible - like Monday. I would stress the seriousness of the situation and let them know that what is currently happening to the older girl can't continue to happen. They need to protect the older sister from the younger one until they can get the younger girl's behavior under control. I might also remind them that I am a mandated reporter and that if the older sister continues to be injured, I'd be forced to report the situation since allowing her to be injured by her sister could be considered neglect on their part. Not sure how right or wrong I'd be but that's what I think I would do. Glad I'm not in your shoes right now! Good luck at pick up!
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:53 PM
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I'm really not sure what to tell you! Given your description of the injuries, it sounds as though she's being abused by the younger sister. If the parents are allowing it to happen, would it be considered neglect and would it be something that should be reported?

I'll be honest, though, and say that if it were me in this situation, I wouldn't necessarily jump to report it. I'd probably ask the parents if they've seen the injuries and if they know how she got them. I would tell them what the dcg told you and remind them that they mentioned the possibility of having the younger girl evaluated. I'd ask them where they're at with that process. If they haven't made an appointment yet, I would tell them they need to make one as soon as possible - like Monday. I would stress the seriousness of the situation and let them know that what is currently happening to the older girl can't continue to happen. They need to protect the older sister from the younger one until they can get the younger girl's behavior under control. I might also remind them that I am a mandated reporter and that if the older sister continues to be injured, I'd be forced to report the situation since allowing her to be injured by her sister could be considered neglect on their part. Not sure how right or wrong I'd be but that's what I think I would do. Glad I'm not in your shoes right now! Good luck at pick up!

Poor little girl. You handled this very well, and said the nicest and best things to make her feel safe, btw!
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:54 PM
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Honestly, they could get in a real jam here. Someone could easily see that and think THEY are hurting her, and call CPS.
That's a good point! At the very least, maybe it would motivate them to protect the older sister!
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:20 PM
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Daycare, just wondering how it went at pick up yesterday and how you're doing today?
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:19 PM
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Daycare, just wondering how it went at pick up yesterday and how you're doing today?
I am curious also. I would also show them the marks and tell her what you were told about how they happened. I would tell them something like "something has to be done about this, as it is abusive and cannot be allowed to continue". Depending on their reaction, I would decide what to do next.
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Old 03-15-2015, 04:56 PM
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They're not abusing her themselves but they're certainly neglecting her by not ensuring her safety and well being!
like this this
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Old 03-15-2015, 07:05 PM
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I would tell them they need to separate them at home until they can see a professional about the younger one. If it breaks the skin, human bites can be worse than animal bites (infection wise) because most animal saliva also acts as a natural antiseptic since they use it to lick/naturally heal their wounds.

http://www.creators.com/advice/tween...ite-worse.html

I personally would report because they are not supervising enough if the other one is covered in marks from repetitive incidents, i concider it neglect and them to be accomplices in child endangerment.

They might not take it seriously since it's the younger sibling who is being aggressive, but my younger brother used to always hit me all the time, I was overweight and he was a lot faster and stronger then me, he also has a lot of mental issues now (he claims to be bipolar with schizophrenic tendencies, but he also lies/exaggerates alot). This child needs help learning how to appropriately interact with others and possible anger/mental issues.

Last edited by Starburst; 03-15-2015 at 07:08 PM. Reason: stupid tablet auto correct
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:47 AM
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sorry, I had a family emergency and was gone all weekend. I tired to use my phone, but could not log on for some reason.

Anyway, the grandmother picked up, not the parents. I didn't really know what to say, as I was not certain if I should say anything to her or not.

Right at the time that dcks were getting picked up, I got my emergency call and got a little distracted.

I did show grandma and said, it looks like susie bit sally. grandma came unglued at me, thought it happened here and then I said NO, it happened at home, older DCG confirmed. Grandma apologizes and asks DCG did you tell you parents and she said yes they know. They left. Nothing else was said.

I was out all weekend dealing with a very ill family member, no access to email and no good cell services, so I will have to do it today.

Thanks ladies for all of your replies. I can't agree more that it may not be them that is causing the harm, but I don't feel they are doing anything to stop it either, which is neglectful.

I am going to come up with something to say, so I will be well prepared for pick up today. I can't do it at drop off, too many other parents.
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:57 AM
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sorry, I had a family emergency and was gone all weekend. I tired to use my phone, but could not log on for some reason.

Anyway, the grandmother picked up, not the parents. I didn't really know what to say, as I was not certain if I should say anything to her or not.

Right at the time that dcks were getting picked up, I got my emergency call and got a little distracted.

I did show grandma and said, it looks like susie bit sally. grandma came unglued at me, thought it happened here and then I said NO, it happened at home, older DCG confirmed. Grandma apologizes and asks DCG did you tell you parents and she said yes they know. They left. Nothing else was said.

I was out all weekend dealing with a very ill family member, no access to email and no good cell services, so I will have to do it today.

Thanks ladies for all of your replies. I can't agree more that it may not be them that is causing the harm, but I don't feel they are doing anything to stop it either, which is neglectful.

I am going to come up with something to say, so I will be well prepared for pick up today. I can't do it at drop off, too many other parents.
Keep us updated! I hope your family member is ok .
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:09 AM
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Keep us updated! I hope your family member is ok .
thanks....On Friday I took this very bad. I just don't understand how anyone could let anyone or anything hurt their child like this.

THey know their younger child has issues, they have admitted it. I guess what frustrates me is that it seems like no one does anything until DAYCARE demands doc visits, or etc.

This really has upset me.
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Old 03-16-2015, 12:17 PM
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thanks....On Friday I took this very bad. I just don't understand how anyone could let anyone or anything hurt their child like this.

THey know their younger child has issues, they have admitted it. I guess what frustrates me is that it seems like no one does anything until DAYCARE demands doc visits, or etc.

This really has upset me.
I'm sorry you got this on your plate. It's not right that they are letting this happen.

Can you call and see if this is something you need to report? For all you know, there is more going on than dcg is telling you...and if she is covered in marks, something needs to be done. If this were to happen at daycare, you'd be in trouble...it's so poopy that this can happen at home and it's considered okay by family...
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:28 PM
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update....

So I talked to older dcg at play time in private. I asked her how she was and how her weekend went. She told me about it and that her sister got into big trouble this weekend and sent home from G-ma house. I guess they went to the beach and G-ma could not handle little sis and made the parents come pick her up. She told me it was fun after that.

I decided at lunch time to call dcm at work. She was very open to hearing me talk, but said that she felt they had it under control. She said she realized that it was a problem, but they saw it nothing more than sibling rivalry.

I told her of course sisters will fight, but the fact that marks are being left and that DCG is telling me that she is scared that you and dad won't stop it, is very concerning to me. She asked in a snarky tone, well what do you suggest we do then.

I told her that younger DCG needs to get the eval. I also told her that I was going to require a doctors note of appointment being made by the end of this week or younger dcg could not return. I said that I felt that neither of the children's needs are being met. She again in a snarky tone said "how do you see that?"

I told her that the younger girl obviously has some issues that need to address and worked with and only until a medical professional saw her, could that be done.

I also told her that the older girls needs were not being met, as she needs to be safe ALWAYS no matter what, even if it is her little sister and her safety needs were not being met.

I said, look, there is no easy way for me to say this, but this is a serious matter and I really need for this issue to be address immediately. I love your kids and have a duty as their provider to make sure they are always safe in or out of my care. It's what you agreed for me to do the day you signed them up, so I am just upholding our agreement.

I then told her that if it was not addressed by the end of this week no only could younger dcg not come back, but I would be forced to deal with it myself, which means reporting it.

WOW I was proud of my self, as i said all of that shaking over the phone. i am sure I looked like a scare cat, thankfully she could not see that.

DCM didn't bite back and said ok. Said she didn't really feel it was that bad, that DCG can exaggerate things, but if there was not other choice, she would follow through. I just said thank you, I will be looking for that doctors appointment note this week.

I have never had any problems with this family, but not be letting up on this until I see that they have taken care of the situation.

What else should I do? I know they will follow up, but should I be prepared for anything else?

Thanks for reading this far, sorry it's a lot..
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:56 PM
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update....

So I talked to older dcg at play time in private. I asked her how she was and how her weekend went. She told me about it and that her sister got into big trouble this weekend and sent home from G-ma house. I guess they went to the beach and G-ma could not handle little sis and made the parents come pick her up. She told me it was fun after that.

I decided at lunch time to call dcm at work. She was very open to hearing me talk, but said that she felt they had it under control. She said she realized that it was a problem, but they saw it nothing more than sibling rivalry.

I told her of course sisters will fight, but the fact that marks are being left and that DCG is telling me that she is scared that you and dad won't stop it, is very concerning to me. She asked in a snarky tone, well what do you suggest we do then.

I told her that younger DCG needs to get the eval. I also told her that I was going to require a doctors note of appointment being made by the end of this week or younger dcg could not return. I said that I felt that neither of the children's needs are being met. She again in a snarky tone said "how do you see that?"

I told her that the younger girl obviously has some issues that need to address and worked with and only until a medical professional saw her, could that be done.

I also told her that the older girls needs were not being met, as she needs to be safe ALWAYS no matter what, even if it is her little sister and her safety needs were not being met.

I said, look, there is no easy way for me to say this, but this is a serious matter and I really need for this issue to be address immediately. I love your kids and have a duty as their provider to make sure they are always safe in or out of my care. It's what you agreed for me to do the day you signed them up, so I am just upholding our agreement.

I then told her that if it was not addressed by the end of this week no only could younger dcg not come back, but I would be forced to deal with it myself, which means reporting it.

WOW I was proud of my self, as i said all of that shaking over the phone. i am sure I looked like a scare cat, thankfully she could not see that.

DCM didn't bite back and said ok. Said she didn't really feel it was that bad, that DCG can exaggerate things, but if there was not other choice, she would follow through. I just said thank you, I will be looking for that doctors appointment note this week.

I have never had any problems with this family, but not be letting up on this until I see that they have taken care of the situation.

What else should I do? I know they will follow up, but should I be prepared for anything else?

Thanks for reading this far, sorry it's a lot..
WOW! You did a great thing, and I'm so proud of you!
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:02 PM
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What else should I do? I know they will follow up, but should I be prepared for anything else?
I think you've done all you can for now. I would see what happens by the end of the week and I would check the older sister daily for any new injuries. If there are any new ones, you'll know they are still not protecting her at home and can let them know that you're aware of that.

Given dcm's snarky replies to your concerns, I would be prepared for her to pull the kids. At that point, I would report her just to make sure someone is involved who can takes steps to make sure the older sister is protected. It doesn't sound as though the parents will do much unless there is someone pushing them on it.
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Old 03-17-2015, 12:20 PM
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I think you've done all you can for now. I would see what happens by the end of the week and I would check the older sister daily for any new injuries. If there are any new ones, you'll know they are still not protecting her at home and can let them know that you're aware of that.

Given dcm's snarky replies to your concerns, I would be prepared for her to pull the kids. At that point, I would report her just to make sure someone is involved who can takes steps to make sure the older sister is protected. It doesn't sound as though the parents will do much unless there is someone pushing them on it.
This and document everything. I might even take pictures of the injuries.
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Old 03-17-2015, 12:29 PM
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If she pulls the kids and/or if you have to report her, I would also give licensing a call if you are regulated. She could try to say it happened at your day care.
Wow! You are caught between a rock and a hard spot...needing to protect the child and your day care, but at the same time giving the parents a chance to do something about the situation and hoping that they do. This is heart-breaking for both you and the child. I hope the parents get some help and an evaluation for the younger girl and immediately.
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Old 03-17-2015, 12:47 PM
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Daycare~ You know I love you (and I KNOW your intentions are pure and good) but I'm sorry, I think you are over stepping your boundaries a bit with this.

I know others feel you are "protecting" the child but you really have NO idea what actually goes on in this family's home. You only have a 4 yr olds version of what's happening....from HER perspective.

I think you are overstepping when you take DCG aside and talk privately with her about this as your obligation should be to only report when you feel a child is being abused or neglected. If you truly feel that is happening, report it.

If you don't want to report directly to CPS or don't feel it warrants a call to CPS, then tell the parents they need to figure out how to manage their children so that the older one does not come with bruises or visible injuries because if she continues to do so, you have an obligation to report as a mandated reporter and will do so if you witness any other physical injuries/bruises etc.

Honestly, I don't really blame mom for being snarky in her reply as I am sure she finds this to be an intrusion into her family life and one that isn't welcome as evidenced by her response.

At the first mention of this, I would have spoken directly to the parents. I would not have continued discussing this with DCG.

I am NOT saying you are doing this, but some of your actions/words almost seem to appear as if you are pumping DCG for information or even possibly leading her to conclusions about what is happening verses doing what we (as providers) are required to do.
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Old 03-17-2015, 01:56 PM
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Daycare~ You know I love you (and I KNOW your intentions are pure and good) but I'm sorry, I think you are over stepping your boundaries a bit with this.

I know others feel you are "protecting" the child but you really have NO idea what actually goes on in this family's home. You only have a 4 yr olds version of what's happening....from HER perspective.

I think you are overstepping when you take DCG aside and talk privately with her about this as your obligation should be to only report when you feel a child is being abused or neglected. If you truly feel that is happening, report it.

If you don't want to report directly to CPS or don't feel it warrants a call to CPS, then tell the parents they need to figure out how to manage their children so that the older one does not come with bruises or visible injuries because if she continues to do so, you have an obligation to report as a mandated reporter and will do so if you witness any other physical injuries/bruises etc.

Honestly, I don't really blame mom for being snarky in her reply as I am sure she finds this to be an intrusion into her family life and one that isn't welcome as evidenced by her response.

At the first mention of this, I would have spoken directly to the parents. I would not have continued discussing this with DCG.

I am NOT saying you are doing this, but some of your actions/words almost seem to appear as if you are pumping DCG for information or even possibly leading her to conclusions about what is happening verses doing what we (as providers) are required to do.


We are mandated reporters, not CPS investigators. Continuing to discuss it with the child is investigating. Please don't cross that line. I know that you are educated, but I don't think you are trained to do that correctly. If you think this needs to be investigated, report it.
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Old 03-17-2015, 02:03 PM
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I agree that I wouldn't discuss it with DCG anymore. If you feel from this point you need to report it, then do it. Discussing it with it further may actually hurt more than it helps. Do try to protect her, but try not to get to emotionally involved even though I know that is hard.
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Old 03-17-2015, 03:28 PM
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Daycare~ You know I love you (and I KNOW your intentions are pure and good) but I'm sorry, I think you are over stepping your boundaries a bit with this.

I know others feel you are "protecting" the child but you really have NO idea what actually goes on in this family's home. You only have a 4 yr olds version of what's happening....from HER perspective.

I think you are overstepping when you take DCG aside and talk privately with her about this as your obligation should be to only report when you feel a child is being abused or neglected. If you truly feel that is happening, report it.

If you don't want to report directly to CPS or don't feel it warrants a call to CPS, then tell the parents they need to figure out how to manage their children so that the older one does not come with bruises or visible injuries because if she continues to do so, you have an obligation to report as a mandated reporter and will do so if you witness any other physical injuries/bruises etc.

Honestly, I don't really blame mom for being snarky in her reply as I am sure she finds this to be an intrusion into her family life and one that isn't welcome as evidenced by her response.

At the first mention of this, I would have spoken directly to the parents. I would not have continued discussing this with DCG.

I am NOT saying you are doing this, but some of your actions/words almost seem to appear as if you are pumping DCG for information or even possibly leading her to conclusions about what is happening verses doing what we (as providers) are required to do.
thing is is that the parents have not and did not deny it....they agree that they need help and that the child needs help.

I hear what you are saying, but I feel that I am giving them a good outlet to getting this issue fixed, which mom already sent me an email saying that they were given a few referrals and are following up.

I think that by calling CPS I would have only had this family turn against me, pull two kids, and try to bring me down. Or make things worse for the children than necessary. I really do think that they just did not see it as a big deal, to me it is

I adopted my first child and am very familiar with how CPS works, so I want to help the family first if I can. Wouldn't you want someone to give you the benefit of the doubt instead of just reporting you ???

In my 12 years of being a provider no matter the reason, I give every family the benefit of the doubt first, just as I would want them to do with them.

I am an advocate for this child and I feel and know I am doing the right thing here

Last edited by daycare; 03-17-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 03-17-2015, 03:58 PM
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Funny how everyone was supportive of daycare's decision before BC31 shut it down.
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:07 PM
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I am still supportive of her and believe she HAD to do something. And giving the family a eye opener is not a bad thing at all, they needed it. I just think that out and out asking the child is what I wouldn't do. If she came and told me things without my asking, I would bring them up with the parents and discuss it with them. I just wouldn't be asking questions of the child.
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:07 PM
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I just think its a matter on how we all choose to do or not to do things and how we view it.

I completely understand where BC is coming from, but this is what I felt I would do with this family, she obviously would have not handled it the way I am and that is perfectly ok....

I have a very trusting relationship for 3 years with this family and they a great people. I know good people make bad choices at times too, but I don't honestly feel that this is the case. I just don't think that THE thought it was that big of a deal.

If at any time I doubt anything I know I can call and I will, but until that time comes, I am ok with how it is going now.

Last edited by daycare; 03-17-2015 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:08 PM
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Funny how everyone was supportive of daycare's decision before BC31 shut it down.
How exactly did I "shut it down"?

I shared an opinion. Which I am entitled to do.

I also did it using my username and not as unregistered. .....

.......which is what most members do when they share an opinion they know is not the majority.

I gave my reasons and did not coerce anyone else into sharing my views.

If you think MY opinion has the weight to shut down a thread... then that is YOUR opinion and you are entitled to that but I have just as much right as anyone else on this forum to share my opinion. Even if it's not the majority.
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Thriftylady View Post
I am still supportive of her and believe she HAD to do something. And giving the family a eye opener is not a bad thing at all, they needed it. I just think that out and out asking the child is what I wouldn't do. If she came and told me things without my asking, I would bring them up with the parents and discuss it with them. I just wouldn't be asking questions of the child.
but i had to ask, I dropped the ball Friday due to a family emergency and I did not want DCG to think that I let her down in any way. She is almost 5 and a very smart one at that. She did say to her mom the other day, Ms.N told me to tell her if anyone ever hurts me, right in front of me and I said that's right no matter who it is. You never let anyone hurt you.
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:16 PM
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Oh and "unregistered".... Daycare knows I am not being unsupportive of her.

She KNOWS I support and love her but she also knows I will share my perspective with her even when I don't agree with her and it doesn't affect our friendship as that's what friends are for.... I support her but it doesn't mean I will always agree 100%.

Daycare~ I understand where you are coming from as well. I didn't comment earlier because I see your point. My only concern was what "could" potentially happen as fall out IF the family gets upset or feels you over stepped. kwim?

I think they could try and say you were coercing the child into saying more or embellishing and that could be trouble for you.

I agree that it was a good thing to talk to the family.... and you know them best so you are the only one who really knows the right/wrong way to approach them about a touchy subject.

I think you can be a supportive and safe person for the DCG but the subject shouldn't be discussed amongst the two of you anymore once you brought it up to the parents. I suppose if the child wants to talk more about it, you can listen to her but I don't think you should make promises or say things will change for her etc type things because you really can't guarantee that.

I just want you to protect your own butt because you know as well as I do that they are only golden until something doesn't go their way and this whole situation has the makings of a good situation that could potentially go bad fast.
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:19 PM
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Oh and "unregistered".... Daycare knows I am not being unsupportive of her.

She KNOWS I support and love her but she also knows I will share my perspective with her even when I don't agree with her and it doesn't affect our friendship as that's what friends are for.... I support her but it doesn't mean I will always agree 100%.

Daycare~ I understand where you are coming from as well. I didn't comment earlier because I see your point. My only concern was what "could" potentially happen as fall out IF the family gets upset or feels you over stepped. kwim?

I think they could try and say you were coercing the child into saying more or embellishing and that could be trouble for you.

I agree that it was a good thing to talk to the family.... and you know them best so you are the only one who really knows the right/wrong way to approach them about a touchy subject.

I think you can be a supportive and safe person for the DCG but the subject shouldn't be discussed amongst the two of you anymore once you brought it up to the parents. I suppose if the child wants to talk more about it, you can listen to her but I don't think you should make promises or say things will change for her etc type things because you really can't guarantee that.

I just want you to protect your own butt because you know as well as I do that they are only golden until something doesn't go their way and this whole situation has the makings of a good situation that could potentially go bad fast.
hey, you know that one of the things I love about you more that anything is that you keep it 100%.....lol I just learned that last week...lol I am so ghetto...lol jk

YOu keep it real and yes you are right, if things do fall back I could be in a worse issue. I have done as everyone mentioned and have been documenting everything.

I don't want to learn any more lessons the hard way...
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