Today, 4yo dcg was repeatedly aggressive. It was happening right under my direct supervision for no apparant reason.

Incident #1 dcg choked dcb during morning circle. dcb and dcg were just sitting next to each other, dcb was singing and dcg was sulking and then BAM, she DOVE on him and was choking him with both hands wrapped around his throat. I had to forcibly remove dcg's hands from dcb (peel back each finger) before she would let go. Immediate separation from the group. dcg said "I don't know" when asked why she hurt dcb. DCB had finger marks on his neck for almost an hour, and she broke the skin with her fingernails.

Incident #2 happened not even 30 minutes later, we were lining up to go to the restroom and dcg shoved a different dcb HARD. He fell into another dcb who also fell and bit his lip and caused bleeding and a small cut.

Incident #3 happened as we were eating snack, dcg sits next to other dcg, both are munching bananas as I peel the rest for the other kids. Dcg reached over & yanked other dcg's ponytail so hard dcg fell backwards out of the chair and (of course) started to cry, she also bruised her elbow & needed an ice pack.


Then I called her mother to come get her. I separated her from the group completely (hula hoop). She was here within 45 minutes and dcb came over to tell her what dcg did to him. Dcm was upset with me, and I honestly was as well (edited to add-to have allowed it to happen more than once). Although I don't know that I could have done anything differently without separating her for the entire day. She is my roughest child, and sneaky about it, but the blatant aggression was a shock today. I was SO UPSET that I didn't even know what to say.


All of my daycare kids are ridiculously verbal and of course as I explained to each parent how their child was hurt at daycare the kids are telling who hurt them (I try not to name the offender).

This is NOT dcg's first incident, and if it weren't for daycare girl, I wouldn't have ANY aggression in my home at all. She is the oldest of my group, too! She was out sick Monday, and when I received the phone call and told the kids they all CHEERED .


I sent home three kids with visible/lasting injuries, just received one phone call from a Mom (Dad picked up) and when dh came home and I spoke to him he says he REALLY thinks I should have termed immediately. Now that I have had time to cool down, I agree. Either way, I will be giving notice. I just read through my entire parent handbook and it's pretty vague, as in I don't have a listed # of offenses or incidents.

At 4 I would expect her to be able to control her behavior and not get physical, 99% of the time. But unprovoked extreme aggression? No way.

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You can terminate, at will, for any reason.

You do not need to give a reason if you so choose.

It is entirely up to you.

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I'd give notice in the morning.

The way she is behaving is completely and utterly unacceptable and that kind of behvaior can't go on in group care.

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No matter what your contract states, you can terminate immediately. Your job is to keep the children SAFE, first and foremost. Besides, you cant risk loosing your other kids!

The only question is the money part, really. Give them a refund.

I would call her and tell her that after careful consideration, you can't have her back. Document EVERYTHING that happened today, and do whatever is required for your state (do you have to file incident reports with licensing?).

Send a follow up letter...."THis is to confirm our conversation this evening. As I stated on the phone, DCG will not be able to return to xx daycare due to aggressive behavior that happened today. I am enclosing a check for $ to refund you for your deposit and remaining tuition".

Do not, not, not get into a war of words with her on the phone. Just say NO! Meaning...please one more chance? Im sorry, but no.

After you speak to her, call all your other dcp's and let them know that the situation has been resolved. "Of course, I cannot get into specifics, but what happened here today will not happen again. The child that caused the injuries will not be returning". They'll figure it out from there.

Call your licenser tommorow and tell her what happened even if you don't have to. "I am calling to give you a heads up...we had a situation here yesterday that required me to terminate a childcare arrangement, and I thought you should know".

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You can email her now and tell her:

"After several conferences with other clients this evening, I feel it is best you keep *** home tomorrow to allow some distance from the events of today. I appreciate your understanding in this matter."

That will give her a heads up of what is coming, and allow you time to cool down to make a decision.

She may also just pull out, saving you the trouble.

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I have NEVER had to do this before, in 7 years! I'm soooo nervous but after the 4 conversations that I had with parents today, I KNOW that if this continues to happen I will lose my awesome kids/clients. *sigh*

I will call Mom this evening and let her know dcg cannot come back.

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I have a dcg that just moved on to a private school where she is in an advanced head start classroom. She has been kicked out of school on several different occasions. I think about 5 different times since school started in august. A few times her mother brought her here to me when she was kicked out. She was very very violent on a few occasions, others were minor. I am super shocked that the school has not kicked her out for behavior....

I also think that you should term now. You need to do this to help the parents nip this now. If it goes on, the child will only continue to be a bully...

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Oh Diva that is just so sad. You are making the right decision. Please keep us updated on how it went.

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Ok, here is what I have settled on. I am fairly certain that they will just pull her from care.

Incidents on October 25, 2012

Incident #1 *** choked unnamed boy during morning circle. Unnamed boy and *** were sitting next to each other. Unnamed boy was singing, *** dove on him and choked him with both hands wrapped around his throat. I had to physically remove ***'s hands from unnamed boy before she would let go. *** was immediately separated from the group.

Incident #2 We were lining up to go to the restroom and *** shoved a different unnamed boy very forcibly. He fell into another unnamed boy who also fell and bit his lip and caused bleeding and a small laceration.

Incident #3 Happened during morning snack. *** sits next to unnamed girl, both are eating bananas as I peel the rest for the other kids. *** reached over & yanked unnamed girl’s ponytail so hard she fell backwards out of the chair and started to cry, she also bruised her elbow.

These were not the only incidents of aggressive behavior, some were less severe and others were stopped when *** was shadowed by provider for the remainder of the day.

While physical altercations can be developmentally appropriate, they are never socially acceptable and the provider has a no tolerance policy towards physical aggression. If inappropriate behavior or something of a more serious nature occurs that is a threat to the safety of the child or other children, it is the provider’s responsibility to maintain a calm, safe, loving atmosphere for the other children in care.

This letter is to inform you; *********, that as of November 9, 2012 I will no longer be able to offer childcare services to ***********.

I will continue to provide child care services until November 9, 2012 on the condition that all parties involved understand that any further incidents of aggression will require *** to be picked up immediately and care will be terminated effective at that time and there will not be a refund of fees.

In accordance with my Policies and Contract, you are required to pay for my services for the final two weeks of care.

Amount due at this time: $350 due on Friday October 26, 2012.


Provider Signature __________________________Date_____________

Parent Signature ___________________________Date______________

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It sounds great.

Do you have a contingency plan for if she refuses to pay tomorrow?

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I don't need the income, so that isn't a concern (although I would have reacted the same even if it wasn't)

I will take them to small claims court.

Mom signed it this morning, and I gave them a copy.

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Glad to read the positive update!

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I think you can term at any time. You and the other kids have a right to safety.

That being said, something inside me tells me that dcg is modeling behavior that she sees elsewhere. Is she allowed to watch violent tv? Or worse, possible abuse at home? At age 4, children should know better. I have a 4 year old dcb who snaps sometimes, but it is only when he is provoked by other children, and I know it is because his parents let him watch adult violent movies. But he never randomly attacks anyone, he just overly-defends himself.

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this happened a couple of weeks ago too. Except the child was 18months old. She was like this too. She was small too, so no one expect it how violent she really was. She kept pushing the kids, bitting them and lately she started to choke them.

they kept saying that they don't why or where she learned it from, but it wasn't here because none of the kids did any of it. And I have 3 that are her age. I termed her and its been the best. No more fighting, its calm here. The kids don't have to hoard toys. I thought for sure the kids would miss her, but they don't.

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It's Friday morning and she needed care today - I bet she won't bring her back on Monday. Haha - the kids will really be cheering when they hear she isn't coming back at all!

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I'm glad that everything turned out well for you and I hope that everything still does go well. I really hope that you think about requiring new clients to give you a two-week deposit in advance (to cover the final 2 weeks of childcare) even if it's paid in payments and add a termination policy that allows you to immediately term a child when something of this nature happens.

Here's what mine says ... I'm sure others have policies like this as well that they can share to give you ideas.

Provider Termination

The Provider has the right to terminate the parent/provider contract at any time without notice. In most cases the child care provider will give a two weeks’ notice in writing. The Provider, however, reserves the right to terminate service immediately under any circumstances including, but not limited to:

• Failure to comply with the policies set forth in this handbook or contract.
• Contesting and/or attempting to negotiate the contract and/or policies.
• Scheduling conflicts.
• Failure to complete required forms by their required due date.
• Disruptive or hurtful behavior of a child that persists.
• Disruptive or hurtful behavior of a child that persists due to lack of cooperation by parent.
• Intentionally and frequently bringing an ill child to the daycare.
• Intentionally bringing an ill child to the daycare and masking the illness with
• medication.
• Non-payment of childcare fees or persistently late and/or recurring late
• payment fees.
• Failure to bring child for five days in a row without any communication.
• [Daycare's] inability to meet the child's needs without additional staff, equipment and/or remodeling of the childcare home.
• Blatant deliberate disrespect or damage to the provider's home, family, furnishings or other belongings by a child, parent or other person which picks the child up.
• Any behavior by a parent that poses a possible risk to the other children in care such as (but not limited to) being under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs
• Other erratic behavior deemed unsafe or disrespectful by the child care provider.

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Marina- do you mind if I copy and paste that into my parent handbook? I love it all, word for word!

She watches a LOT of tv, and after speaking with the mother this morning who was in tears, she says that she was in a group family daycare and they bumped her for a FT kid, then was in a center (which she still claims she didn't like) and now me, since they moved a year ago. I am really leaning towards her being actually booted for aggression.

Her Mom picked her up early, and said that they won't be back. So, alls well that ends well! (But I emailed my registrar just in case)

Thank you all so much!

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That's great!! What a weigh lifted eh? I still can't get over that the kids cheered when you told them she would be absent the one day . And it looks like crazydaycarelady was right, she won't be back on Monday .

And yes daycarediva, have at it. Copy and paste the heck out of the policy if you like .

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I sent emails to all of the parents at naptime (seeing as some of them know this Mom/girl from daycare events and even some outside of daycare). I received nothing but positive feedback that she isn't returning and am hearing that the kids have told parents that they didn't like her (obviously).

I wished the Mom the best of luck in finding the right care situation, but until they start addressing the behavioral concerns, it isn't going to change.

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when I termed my aggressive kids last year, my part timers cheered too. When mom came to get the pt'ers, they yelled "MOM! The HITTING kids weren't here today!!!!!

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Ya know that is something I tend to sometimes over look. A difficult child impacts the other kids too! Sometimes providers feel they HAVE to keep a child (due to income or obligation, guilt or whatever) and don't necessarily think about the situation from the other daycare kids' perspective.

I have a screaming baby that I endured for almost 8 months. When he left for summer break, I saw a HUGE change in my other kids. The affects this screaming kid had on the others was so big that I am ashamed to admit I kept the little one for so long.

fwiw~ I still have him, but after summer break he came back a 100% different kid so all is well now but I will never do that to the other kids again and as a parent, I think if I knew my child was subjected to a "difficult" kid, I would re-think my child's care arrangements.

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I will no longer be accepting a child into care that disrupts everyone that way again.

I added MarinaVanessa's entire post ^ AND will send home updated parent handbooks Nov 1 with the newsletter.

Dcm of DCB who was choked told me that dcb didn't want to come today (first time in his 3+ years here) bc he was afraid of dcg! Dcm thanked me for keeping her son safe. She said "I know I picked the right place for him because I know he is safe and loved here." Awesome end to this week, imho!

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It's both a little sad for me and a lot of happy. It's so sad for the aggressive child because she needed to be terminated but maybe this is a wakeup call for mom .... hopefully it is. Maybe you are that one person that finally makes it click that this is a huge problem and something needs to be done about it.

I'm happy for you because overall you took charge of the situation and you made a decision that was best for everyone all around and I'm especially happy for you because it sounds like you at least have one DCP that really appeciates how difficult this situation was and is grateful to you for making the decision that you did. The thought that you now say that this is an awesome end to this week warms me. You tried your best and in the end made a great decision. If I lived near you and didn't do daycare I think I'd be one of your clients too

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That means soooo much to me! Thank you for your help and kind words!

I feel terrible for dcg, and I do hope that her mother follows through with what I have been telling her. (more face time with dcg, routine, stucture, less tv, etc) dcg is very bright, but often childen like that need MORE routine and structure. She excelled here because of our structure, consistency and loving guidance. At home, she was allowed to make many of her own decisions and was left to her own devices for long stretches of time (as in from after pickup at 11 here, she was allowed to 'free range' at home until dinner where she was able to chose her meal. She free ranged to the tv & ate junk.

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User logged out because I just can't remember my password. What is this "wake up call" that I hear about that parents of children need. Why is it that parents with kids like my youngest need to be constantly reminded of how awful our children are as if we don't already know and feel horrible.

My son bites, he scratches, he's gets angry and screams. He's also very loving and funny and intelligent. He's 3 and stubborn to the max. Why do parents like me need to 'wake up' to what we already know about our children?

I've already read a million times here how my son would be termed by many of you by behaviours I have NO control over while he's in other providers care. I work in the same daycare my kids attend. My daughter is a text book dream child. My son is demanding, intense and easily frustrated. I know this. I take summers off to try to work with him on this. I read the books, I have the discussions, I don't used violence to teach non violence. I was an excellent caregiver to infants and toddlers for 12 years before I had him. Then I had him and he blew all my theories about children getting personalities from their parents out of the water, blew them all to he**.

Yet as I read on this website I hear a million times about how the parents need to pay, need to make a change, need to fix it. He's not biting when I'm with him! He's biting in someone elses care. I'm glad my sons care providers have never made me feel like I'm to blame for all of his emotional rollercoasters. He's 3 and finally starting to show signs of growing out of it. Thank heavans. But most of the providers on this site would have had it shoved in my face that I have to somehow magically change my sons temperment. The one he was born with and I've been studiously trying to alter since the day he was born. He's not special needs, he's just a little bugger. Mommy guilt is a heck of a downer to have thrown in a parents face.

And thats another thing.. why is it always the moms that need to wake up? Why is the dumping rarely done on the dads? they're the ones wrestling with the little monsters and trying to watch shows like "jackass" in front of them. Rarely the moms, yet we take all the heat.

Rant over, carry on.

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If you can tell me your username or email address I can send you a password reminder.

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It sounds to me like his personality does not match large center care and I think he is probably frustrated that he cannot be with you.

This is not your fault. It doesn't make you a bad parent. He probably just really loves his Mommy and would rather be with her. You said he is well behaved when he is in your care.

IMO He should maybe be cared for in an environment where there are fewer children until he is better able to socialize with his peers.
The ideal situation, however, for a child like this would be to have a parent be home with him until he is old enough to crave social interaction. (I know that this is not always possible but some littles just thrive better at home or even in a place where Grandma or a neighbor care for just them) Some kids just really don't like playing with other kids and hate having other kids in their faces all day. It really stresses them out.
It is normal.
However, I don't think it is fair to the other DCKS to be pushed, hit, scratched and bit until he comes around.
I don't think parents are always to blame for social aggression in a child.
I had a DCG who had dream DCPS. They were very involved and very loving people. DCG was a biter and a choker. I had to term because my DS was terrified of her and it was really sad. DCM found a retired woman to care for DCG after being termed from another family home daycare. This woman took her to a playgroup once a week to work on her social skills but otherwise she was alone with babysitter everyday. DCG thrived from the one on one and is now a happy, friendly 5 year old who loves having friends over to play sometimes.

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First I want to say that I 100% understand where you are coming from. I have a son IDENTICAL to what you have described. My son is the reason why I have a child care. No one else would, could or did keep him. He was termed by 3 providers within the first year and a half of his life and again during his preschool years he was banned, kicked out of, and not allowed to join sports teams, clubs and social groups. I was in college trying to earn a degree not even remotely related to early childhood.

My DH and I did everything we could to help our son but he was, as you put it "just a little bugger". So just wanted to say I DO understand that part of it.

However, as a daycare provider I now have an obligation to protect and guarantee that ALL the children enrolled have a safe and secure environment and I can see first hand how my son would not have made that possible in certain settings.

I also think it makes the situation completely different IF a parent (both mom and dad) is working with the provider and being honest about what goes on at home as well as the routines and schedules being cohesive to each other. I also think it is important for the parent of a difficult child and the provider to have a good relationship and have open honest communication about the situation.

In my case with the screaming baby I had (and kept) I KNEW mom and dad were doing everything they could for their child. I felt as though they were 100% honest with me about the methods they used at home for sleeping, eating and disciplining with their baby. This baby simply hated being a baby and there was little we could do but survive. Thankfully, my story has a happy ending and this screaming baby is now a happy healthy funny enjoyable little toddler but honestly, if I had to do it all over again, knowing what I know now...I dont think I would or could.

It was hard. I am so lucky the mom was wonderful and wanted more than anything to work with me in getting past this.

Personally, for me, I think I kept this little one as a way to make things right for me and my son as this little one's behaviors and temperment reminded me so much of my son that I kind of felt like it was a "do-over" for me. A chance to see if the behaviors could be fixed or cured in a better more knoweledgeable way than ways I used to help my DS. I have a degre in ECE now and felt I could better understand the motives and feelings behind the behaviors. Sadly nothing I learned in school really helped except I was able to be a bit more patient but I think that was more to do with age than education.

Anyways long story short, I DO blame and hold parents responsible IF they are doing nothing to change thier childs behaviors. I do think they need a wake up call if they are doing little or no real parenting at home. If the TV is on all the time and there are no routines and consistent discipline at home, then it IS the parents fault (moms more than dads because in reality moms are generally the primary caregivers).

If the parents are on-board and working closely with the other adults in their child's life to maintain consistent routines and behavior manangement, then it si NOT their fault and I wouldn't blame them or hold them responsible at all.

The level of parent involvement and the amount of honest open communication between parent and provider is what matters to me. That makes the difference on who (if anyone) needs a wake up call.


oh and fwiw~ my son is an adult now and there is no trace left of that sullen, ornery difficult child...so hang in there.

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Bahahaha, thanks for trying to be sweet but instead being (hopefully unintentionally) insulting. As if after 15 years in daycare I don't know my child, or what children do well in group care.. and where is this lovely grandma that would be able to handle my little hellhound. Oh god. I can't even imagine the stress he'd cause some sweet little old lady type. ROFL the image is hilarious.
Unfortunately all of your assessments are completely wrong. My son does really well in group care and if you're listing the childrens difficult behaviours in our daycare (of 90 children) you'd not even be able to put him in the top 15 for worst behaviours.. he may make top 25 though.

please please understand, my explanation of my son is 1/15 of his personality. His teachers love him because he's so busy and curious. He loves them and I'm glad to hug him and watch him close the door after me then run off to chat with his buddies. Your sweeping generalization is way off base. A little naieve really.

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You do know that Soccormom was trying to be helpful and supportive but in her defense, it is a bit difficult to do when you come out automatically so angry and hostile. ???

I am sure she was NOT intentially insulting as she is normally a very helpful and supportive member here.

I am confused though as to why you sound so angry in both of your posts?

Like I directly posted to you......I understand and sympathyze in regards to having a difficult child but BOTH Marina Vanessa and Soccormom were simply trying to advise, help and support the original poster of this thread.

What you have to offer could have been done so in a more constructive manner.

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I'm sorry to come across angry. It's more like exasperated. The parenting forum I'm on is brutally harsh about Daycare providers and policy. On the flip side I find many of the caregiver opinions very unsupportive and narrowminded as well. I've never seen such disregard for kids struggling in actual practice so it surprises me to see children like my so easily condemned with little information. Not to mention trying to tell me what my child sounds like. I've never seen the like of it.

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I am not trying to make excuses but since you are a provider, you know how easy it is to come down on the parents because in all honesty, 95% of the problems we have with children in our care does stem from parental input (or lack of) and the type of care/discipline they receive at home.

I think kids like your DS (and mine) are truly few and far between. There are simply kids who literally do not fit into any mold, letter diagnosis or typical anything. I got one. Sounds like you do too.

It is frustrating. It's exhausting and it is unfair. It was also hard to hear others try to fit my "irregular" child into definitions of normal childhood behaviors.

That being said however, there are others who do understand and could maybe even offer you some advice and support if you need it. Sometimes others have that missing piece that makes the difference. Sometimes that piece is perspective, sometimes it is a hint or clue, sometimes it is just a sympathetic ear.

I think while being defensive about providers making sweeping generalizations about mis-behaving children, you did the same about providers all being the same and thinking it is ALWAYS the parents fault.

I think because you do have a unique perspective, you would definitely be valued here as being able to offer another viewpoint and educate providers about those rare but very real kids who have fantastic parents but really tough kids.

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I think it's a contradiction that your son screams, bites and (hits?) and does well in group care.

I have had kids that were more aggressive and I worked with the parents to lessen the behavior. My own ds was much like you are describing and he would have been termed anywhere else. He is my youngest and my other kids were NEVER aggressive.

That being said, the reason that I decided to term this girl was because there was NO WAY to keep the other kids safe from her without separating her completely and all the time. Even for meals. THAT would NEVER happen in my home.

I also think that if you expect more of kids that they will rise to the challenge. Most of my dck's don't behave nearly as well for their parents as they do for me. Why? because like it or not, any behavior that you have allowed is behavior that will continue. I hold a NO AGGRESSION policy in my home and in my daycare. It took 2 YEARS for me to let my own DS out of my sight (from 12m-3yrs) but at age 3-4 they have the understanding to KNOW that their behavior is wrong and I do believe that they can almost always control themselves.

My ds is 4 now and the sweetest kid at preschool. He has never once hit there, he hasn't hit at home in a year.

What are the consequences for your ds at daycare and at home when he is abusive to the other kids? Would an incentive help?

I do believe some kids are just naturally more aggressive/rough and naturally more strong willed. The combination makes for a tough kid to raise. I don't think it's fair to just say "that's the way he is" though. He obviously isn't happy because he is hitting/biting and I'm sure the other kids don't want to be hit/bit either.

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I didn't see this post before but I would like to address it now since it was my post that was quoted.

The wake up call that I was referring to was this moms wake-up call in this particular situation. The child has repetedly shown aggression towards the other children to the point of escalating to choking a child for no apparent reason. The OP said that the child has been in several other childcares (FCC & center) and that she believes that the child was probably terminated for behavior. The wake up call that I was talking about referred to this information. If the child was in fact terminated for challenging behavior issues that had not been addressed before then hopefully this time terminating care would be a wake-up call for DCM that either something needed to be done or the problem would continue.

In most cases some types of aggressive behavior is normal because kids havn't yet learned a proper way to communicate ... I don't believe that a 4yo choking another child is normal.

I did not mention the dad in this situation because I do not know that a dad exists in this particular situation because one was not mentioned. Again, I was not speaking generally, about other moms or about you or your situation ... only speaking about this situation, this child and this DCM.

As a mother of a child with a ADHD, impulse control and behavioral challenges I personally don't believe that every avenue is ever exhausted until the behavior has improved and it is my responsibility as a mother to make sure that I do everything in my power to make sure that my child gets any help she may need so that she does not hurt anyone else.

And just so that it's said, I personally didn't take what was said in offense.

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