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  #1  
Old 10-30-2019, 04:03 PM
D. Owen
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Default Religious Facility Going Too Far?

I'm curious as to any legality regarding state licensed facilities (Wisconsin) and how far they can take their religious indoctrination.

Now before we begin, some groundwork to be laid; I am not religious, at all. Atheist would likely be the best description as I reject all religions and raise my children without it. Be good people because you want to, not because of some fear of eternal damnation. I don't attack religious people, half my family is very religious, but I fight back, hard, when religious beliefs are pushed back on me and my children. That said, if I were able, I would happily take my children elsewhere, however options in my area are, a) Religious Facility, b) In-Home, c) YMCA (which is absurdly expensive). Additionally our school district will only bus to a handful of facilities, all of which are, again, religious or the YMCA. Our hands are quite tied and we are essentially left without options.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way; the issue. The night before Halloween we are being told that our two-year-old cannot wear his costume because it violates their rules/contract. He is SpiderMan. Again, he is two years old. It literally says in their contract (now that I've gone back and read the part about that which no reasonable human being would ever think to look for) "no frightening beings, such as Spider Man". Yes, they list Spider Man as a frightening being.

Setting aside the irony in calling a fictional super hero "frightening" while worshiping someone who supposedly will send you to an eternal fiery damnation as punishment for not believing in Him, or who orders followers to murder their children... Yeah, setting that aside; I'm curious if this institution, any institution, religious or secular, can make such a mandate based on their beliefs.

My wife has told me to drop it. I will die on this hill. She's afraid they'll boot us out if I push the issue which, honestly, makes me want to push harder. Corner me, threaten me, and I go full Ray Donovan. Or I send my 2' tall toe-head in looking like Pennywise...

So really I'm just looking for legal technicalities for this situation. Can I opt my children out of their religious activities? Can they seriously deny him his costume in such a way??

P.S. If you're gonna come in here and just preach at me, you're wasting your effort. Move along.
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  #2  
Old 10-30-2019, 04:45 PM
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The majority of providers here are in-home. Why exactly was in-home not a good option?

The information you need should be in your signed contract. What does it say? Did you sign it? If so, they are covered.
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Old 10-30-2019, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
The majority of providers here are in-home. Why exactly was in-home not a good option?

The information you need should be in your signed contract. What does it say? Did you sign it? If so, they are covered.
Yep. If you signed it, there's your answer.
If it were me, I'm with your wife on this one.
I'm just surprised this issue wasn't looked at earlier than the day before Halloween?
I'm not sure that this is a religious issue. Spiderman *can* be frightening for certain kids. My nephew was terrified of Spiderman when he was 5 yo. Many schools have gone away from Halloween parties/costumes completely and have opted for storybook character costumes or fall festivals instead.
JMO
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  #4  
Old 10-30-2019, 05:18 PM
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Fight them on this and next year the handbook is likely to say that they can only dress up as biblical figures, or wear black & orange.
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2019, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Owen View Post
I'm curious as to any legality regarding state licensed facilities (Wisconsin) and how far they can take their religious indoctrination.

Now before we begin, some groundwork to be laid; I am not religious, at all. Atheist would likely be the best description as I reject all religions and raise my children without it. Be good people because you want to, not because of some fear of eternal damnation. I don't attack religious people, half my family is very religious, but I fight back, hard, when religious beliefs are pushed back on me and my children. That said, if I were able, I would happily take my children elsewhere, however options in my area are, a) Religious Facility, b) In-Home, c) YMCA (which is absurdly expensive). Additionally our school district will only bus to a handful of facilities, all of which are, again, religious or the YMCA. Our hands are quite tied and we are essentially left without options.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way; the issue. The night before Halloween we are being told that our two-year-old cannot wear his costume because it violates their rules/contract. He is SpiderMan. Again, he is two years old. It literally says in their contract (now that I've gone back and read the part about that which no reasonable human being would ever think to look for) "no frightening beings, such as Spider Man". Yes, they list Spider Man as a frightening being.

Setting aside the irony in calling a fictional super hero "frightening" while worshiping someone who supposedly will send you to an eternal fiery damnation as punishment for not believing in Him, or who orders followers to murder their children... Yeah, setting that aside; I'm curious if this institution, any institution, religious or secular, can make such a mandate based on their beliefs.

My wife has told me to drop it. I will die on this hill. She's afraid they'll boot us out if I push the issue which, honestly, makes me want to push harder. Corner me, threaten me, and I go full Ray Donovan. Or I send my 2' tall toe-head in looking like Pennywise...

So really I'm just looking for legal technicalities for this situation. Can I opt my children out of their religious activities? Can they seriously deny him his costume in such a way??

P.S. If you're gonna come in here and just preach at me, you're wasting your effort. Move along.
I was going to post some helpful info but considering your horrible attitude...towards the people you are looking for assistance from is more irony than I can handle.

No preaching or assistance from me. I am moving along.

Oh, and for what it's worth....your wife is a smart woman.
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2019, 07:41 AM
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I have a feeling your child's formal school years are going to be interesting.

When you enroll your child in any program, there are rules you need to follow OR find a different program that more aligns with your desires. Yes, they can deny dressing up like this. It's a dress code- pretty simple.

Fighting policy will only lead to resentment (on your part and theirs) and possibly termination of services. It will happen in public schools too. They may not be so eager to terminate you/your child because of YOUR behavior- but they may treat your child differently due to it. Are you ok with that?

Is it a ridiculous policy, probably. Spiderman isn't scary to me. But then again, I have this super cute blow up black cat wearing a witch hat in my front yard and every single child is afraid to walk up my door. So, what do I know.
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  #7  
Old 10-31-2019, 01:11 PM
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I agree with your wife. Please listen to her. If you don't like the Halloween costume policy, continue to look for another day care option. If/when you find it, let your current day care know why it is you're leaving. In the meantime, respectfully mention the fact that you disagree with their policy if you feel you need to but don't make it "the hill you die on". Honor the contract you signed.
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  #8  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
I was going to post some helpful info but considering your horrible attitude...towards the people you are looking for assistance from is more irony than I can handle.

No preaching or assistance from me. I am moving along.

Oh, and for what it's worth....your wife is a smart woman.
I'm not sure which people you think I'm looking for assistance from, I wasn't aware this was a religious forum, but thanks for commenting that you won't assist. Passive aggressive much?
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  #9  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:20 PM
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I'm not sure which people you think I'm looking for assistance from, I wasn't aware this was a religious forum, but thanks for commenting that you won't assist. Passive aggressive much?
Religious?? She was referring to in-home daycare providers. This is a forum full of daycare providers. The majority in-home.

Wow.
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  #10  
Old 10-31-2019, 03:51 PM
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I'm not sure which people you think I'm looking for assistance from, I wasn't aware this was a religious forum, but thanks for commenting that you won't assist. Passive aggressive much?
Nope. I am not passive aggressive much....Just a little and only when responding to self-absorbed, narcissistic posters who have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

My spidey senses tell me you are more concerned about "winning" than you are about remedying the situation in any type of amicable way. Clearly you are the type of parent/client most of us try really hard to avoid.
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  #11  
Old 11-01-2019, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Nope. I am not passive aggressive much....Just a little and only when responding to self-absorbed, narcissistic posters who have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

My spidey senses tell me you are more concerned about "winning" than you are about remedying the situation in any type of amicable way. Clearly you are the type of parent/client most of us try really hard to avoid.
Well said BC, well said!
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Nope. I am not passive aggressive much....Just a little and only when responding to self-absorbed, narcissistic posters who have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

My spidey senses tell me you are more concerned about "winning" than you are about remedying the situation in any type of amicable way. Clearly you are the type of parent/client most of us try really hard to avoid.
Well said. Caveman type that believe the “weaker sex” should be barefoot in the kitchen and pregnant.
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Owen View Post
I'm curious as to any legality regarding state licensed facilities (Wisconsin) and how far they can take their religious indoctrination.

Now before we begin, some groundwork to be laid; I am not religious, at all. Atheist would likely be the best description as I reject all religions and raise my children without it. Be good people because you want to, not because of some fear of eternal damnation. I don't attack religious people, half my family is very religious, but I fight back, hard, when religious beliefs are pushed back on me and my children. That said, if I were able, I would happily take my children elsewhere, however options in my area are, a) Religious Facility, b) In-Home, c) YMCA (which is absurdly expensive). Additionally our school district will only bus to a handful of facilities, all of which are, again, religious or the YMCA. Our hands are quite tied and we are essentially left without options.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way; the issue. The night before Halloween we are being told that our two-year-old cannot wear his costume because it violates their rules/contract. He is SpiderMan. Again, he is two years old. It literally says in their contract (now that I've gone back and read the part about that which no reasonable human being would ever think to look for) "no frightening beings, such as Spider Man". Yes, they list Spider Man as a frightening being.

Setting aside the irony in calling a fictional super hero "frightening" while worshiping someone who supposedly will send you to an eternal fiery damnation as punishment for not believing in Him, or who orders followers to murder their children... Yeah, setting that aside; I'm curious if this institution, any institution, religious or secular, can make such a mandate based on their beliefs.

My wife has told me to drop it. I will die on this hill. She's afraid they'll boot us out if I push the issue which, honestly, makes me want to push harder. Corner me, threaten me, and I go full Ray Donovan. Or I send my 2' tall toe-head in looking like Pennywise...

So really I'm just looking for legal technicalities for this situation. Can I opt my children out of their religious activities? Can they seriously deny him his costume in such a way??

P.S. If you're gonna come in here and just preach at me, you're wasting your effort. Move along.
I didn't respond to the question, but I am very curious as to how Halloween worked out for you.

I don't believe the childcare's rule had ANYTHING to do with religion, but with actual "scary" things for kids. I was terrified of men with beards when I was a child. My brother would get hysterical if he saw a dog or cat. I have had kids nearly ruin entire summers for us because they were scared of houseflies. I've got one now who is scared to death when he sees 3 inch tall dinosaur toys, and when another kid puts on a dinosaur mask, he loses his dang mind. Different kids have different fears, and they are RARELY justified or rational. Spiderman is absolutely scary for some kids.

I am responding to this for one reason: read and re-read your original post. You seem to be very angry. I don't know what the anger is about, though. I DO know that people who don't believe in religion don't normally take things personally about others' religious views. I know that I find some religious views silly, some downright dangerous, but I've never flipped out at a forum of strangers before any of them have even responded to me yet over religion (which has nothing to do with the spiderman ban). My own child attends a Catholic school. My husband and I are VERY non-religious, but we do respect others' rights to believe whatever makes them feel better about their lives. As long as their beliefs don't hurt me, I'm fine with whatever they want to think. We accepted at the time of enrollment that he will be expected to participate in all religious activities that the Catholic kids do, and while it took a lot of soul searching on our part, we agreed that OUR influence in his life was the most important, and that we would not preach religion nor atheism to him, but let him find his own path, as everyone has the right to do. The fact that this school was the only one within 250 miles of us that could meet his academic needs heavily outweighed all else for us.

I actually envy people with true religion...I envy the peace and happiness they have in their lives. I'm definitely not angry with them for their beliefs. I do get angry about people who use religion as a shield for wrong-doing, but that's an entirely different conversation. If you were MY husband, I would encourage you to search within yourself about where your anger is coming from. Were you harmed by religion or religious people in the past? Do you just feel a need to always be the winner? Do you just feel that you always must be right (which is insecurity)?

No offense meant here, but I feel like you, your wife, and your child could benefit from working on the source of this anger and trying to find ways to cope with it. I wish you the best.
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  #14  
Old 11-01-2019, 04:55 PM
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I love the tags to this post.
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Old 11-01-2019, 07:49 PM
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BTW...The "C" in YMCA stands for "Christian." It is a religious organization. My child was enrolled in our church preschool, and they learned age-appropriate Bible verses, prayed before meals, had chapel and heard Bible stories in addition to all of the other "regular" preschool things like circle time, centers, free play, outdoor play, etc. Much of their art was also themed in religion. If you enroll you child in a religious center, I would expect that to be part of the curriculum. And, take your kid to trunk or treats (there are many here) or trick or treating in his Spider Man costume. You should follow the contract you agreed to or move on.
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Old 11-02-2019, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lblanke View Post
BTW...The "C" in YMCA stands for "Christian." It is a religious organization. My child was enrolled in our church preschool, and they learned age-appropriate Bible verses, prayed before meals, had chapel and heard Bible stories in addition to all of the other "regular" preschool things like circle time, centers, free play, outdoor play, etc. Much of their art was also themed in religion. If you enroll you child in a religious center, I would expect that to be part of the curriculum. And, take your kid to trunk or treats (there are many here) or trick or treating in his Spider Man costume. You should follow the contract you agreed to or move on.
Lol I typed out what the C stood for but I couldn't get myself to post it.
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:49 PM
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I love the tags to this post.
The tags are slaying me👍
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2019, 08:47 PM
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It just baffles me when parents get on like this with the very people who are taking care of their child. If my child was receiving great care and they required me to do something insignificant like not wear a silly costume, you better believe I would comply....happily! GET A GRIP for your child's sake.

Why are some atheists the exact same as bible thumpers in their intolerance? The hypocrisy is hilarious!
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:32 AM
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It just baffles me when parents get on like this with the very people who are taking care of their child. If my child was receiving great care and they required me to do something insignificant like not wear a silly costume, you better believe I would comply....happily! GET A GRIP for your child's sake.

Why are some atheists the exact same as bible thumpers in their intolerance? The hypocrisy is hilarious!
I swear, Ariana, I'm not stalking you this morning but I have to reply when something makes total sense.
Whether the OP suffers from his own feelings of pride or control issues or whatever, his child's care and what life will be like at dc if he raises a huge fuss over such a silly thing...those should be the major concerns. If a child is happy, safe, content, and the dc is otherwise a good place, it's not going to kill a parent to comply and bend with small issues. Let's face it, some people just do not like to bend at all and want/need to call the shots.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:22 AM
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Is he a troll? Because ohhh my.

You listed many options. Centers, in-home care, YMCA.

If you disagree with the contract/handbook, DO NOT SIGN IT and enroll elsewhere. It really IS that simple.

Many of us are in-home providers and all of us have different policies.

I actually agree with you on the religious sentiment, which is why I would never enroll my child in a 'Christian' school. We actually changed school districts because we hated ours and the ONLY other private option was catholic school.

You're honestly lucky they even let the kids dress up, seeing as how the aforementioned Catholic school does not even celebrate Halloween due to it's pagan origin.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:39 PM
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I am enjoying this conversation. There are ways to get over this Ď right Ď he believes his child has. Donít send him to daycare that day. ( That will teach them) , take him out and about in his costume to show it off at the mall, supermarket ,grandmaís. Show him off while you are hanging out with him. Heís 2. He will be happy if you tell him his red t-shirt is his costume for the day. Was dad able to wear a costume to work ? Maybe thatís who should wear a Spider-Man costume.
If this is a true parent, he seriously needs to take a step back. There are bigger trees to climb and he wonít have the energy when the time comes, because heís exhausting himself now over these petty issues.
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