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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Ok How Would You Handle This One?
Heidi 06:07 AM 01-12-2012
3yo dcg

First, she had a incident about 40 minutes before pickup about throwing blocks. It has gotten less frequent, but most often, she hits or kicks me when I "make" her do anything (like take her by the hand and walk her to time out). It does not hurt me, but boy, there are days when I think "if this were my child...." Let just say, no child of mine would have tried that twice!

It's now time to get shoes on for mom to come, and she refuses. I give her 5 minute warning, then bring the 3 toddlers over to the bench to help them. In the 15 min. it takes me to do that, I tell her several times that mom is comming, and she needs to get shoes on. She refuses.

WWYD?

Mom comes to pick up 4 children, and missy is having a temper tantrum and refuses to put on shoes or coat. She has done this before, but often it's when we are going outside, so I just take her out without them on, and she can join the group when she's ready (it's been pretty warm so far).

I just want ideas. I got her out the door, but it wasn't pretty, and I'm wondering if there are other ways I could have handled it...
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Kaddidle Care 06:42 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
3yo dcg
"Thar's your sign!"

Have you let Mom know how difficult she's being with you including the hitting and kicking? What is SHE doing about it?

The only thing I can think of at the moment is to dangle a carrot.. you know - sticker, favorite snack, etc.

She's being ornery - thanks to being 3.
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Cat Herder 07:22 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
she hits or kicks me

I would NEVER tolerate that.

There would be a probationary period WITH a signed discipline plan worked out with the parents. I would follow it to the letter.

The star sticker would already be on the calendar and the term letter would already be typed.

I am not trying to be a hard ***. Just remember she will be in the public school system in 24 months. They have a ZERO tolerance policy. Not handling this NOW can cost her big time soon. Being labeled a disciplinary problem in public school follows them throughout their life.
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mismatchedsocks 07:55 AM 01-12-2012
I dont tolerate hitting or kicking here. She would be refocused ALOT and OFTEN. Does mom pick up all 4 kids that you have? Also if she refused to get her shoes on to go outside to play she would be sitting in stroller the whole time and if she refused to get shoes on to go with mom. I would walk away and let mom deal with it.
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momma2girls 08:22 AM 01-12-2012
I would never tolerate this either!! If anyone hits or kicks another child here at daycare. The parents are definately warned, that if this continues, I can longer provide care for their child. As I have always thought- how would you like your own child treated at daycare. What if or maybe it is your own child being hit or kicked in daycare!
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Blackcat31 08:31 AM 01-12-2012
I agree 110% with Catherder. The hitting is the first issue I would address.

The other issues will fall into place when you establish who is in charge and who isn't. You said when asked to get her shoes on, she refuses. At that point I would do it myself. I don't ask kids to do anything, I tell them to and if they don't comply, I do it myself. NO room for negotiation. I would also remove priviledges during the day until she can start being compliant to the rules. She is 3 yrs old and IMPO, that is plenty old enough to know better.

This mom als needs to step up and take responsibilty for her child. Not for the way the child is acting...she is 3, but she (the mom) can step up and be firm with her child.

Here, if the kids refuse to put their coats and shoes on, they are carried out of the house as is. As a parent, I would take charge and physically carry her to the vehicle, tantrum or not.
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Cat Herder 08:41 AM 01-12-2012
Honestly, 9 times out of 10 the problem is solved before the 30 day probation ends. Termination deemed unnecessary .

It seems having a deadline gets everyone on the same team quickly. It places the behaviors under a magnifying glass instead of the back burner.
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Heidi 09:09 AM 01-12-2012
Honestly, would have termed the whole lot of them long ago, but I have not gotten a single call since October, and I don't have that luxury. Wisconsin is going through some major changes with childcare, and until it equilizes out, it will be tricky to keep going.

Mom has been working on being more firm at home, I know. In fact, I complimented her just yesterday that her following through at home has made a big difference here. That's how it always works, right? Just when you say somethig nice...

I really wanted to hear how other people would have handled it. I ended up pinning her onto my lap and putting her shoes on (mom was taking other 3 to car). She screamed & kicked the whole time. I remained as calm as possible, and just said "the daycare is closed now" to the child (mom could hear me and chuckled). I half carried/half walked her to the car (no coat, it wasn't worth it and it wasn't that cold), as she kicked and screamed. Mom is just SO hard to read, I can never figure out what she's thinking. I have asked her before in other situations (the oldest boy behaves similarly, but throws things vs. hitting me). I hear a lot of "well, he has NO problems at school"...sort of suprised sounding about that (she knows he has issues at home & here). WIth the daughter, who is petite and "sweet", she doesn't say much of anything. I can tell by her body language that she feels bad whenever her children are upset (even if they're being manipulative).

As for stickers as someone suggested, I really, really could not justify using a sticker in a situation like this. It would seem like a bribe, and would not work, anyway. "hey, if you stop having a fit, I will give you a sticker?"
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Blackcat31 09:15 AM 01-12-2012
I think you handled it just fine. I would have done the exact same thing. I tell them to get their shoes on and if they don't comply, I do it for them. I would also have carried her to the car too and wouldn't have cared if she was cold or not. She will get the hint as to who is in charge and with a little consistency and firmness, I would assume she will change her ways.

The next morning, I would also talk with the child about her behavior the previous day at pick up. I think 3 yrs old is plenty old enough to remember the night before. I would explain to her that her behavior at pick up will define what she is and isn't allowed to do the next day while at care.

I know parents can sometimes be hard to read but in all honesty, you have to do what works at your house and she can either support you or she can continue getting complaints about her children's behaviors. It really doesn't matter if they do a certain behavior at home or at school or where ever else, she IS doing it (hitting you/not listening) at your house and that is all the mom should be concerned about when talking with you.

Hang in there, get firm and she will come around.
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Cat Herder 09:15 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
As for stickers as someone suggested, I really, really could not justify using a sticker in a situation like this. It would seem like a bribe, and would not work, anyway. "hey, if you stop having a fit, I will give you a sticker?"
I think you have misunderstood or I misspoke.

The sticker on the calendar is for YOU. One sticker. Put it on there for 30 days from today.

30 day probation. WITH a disciplinary plan carried out with the parents.

A team effort.

At 30 days, re-evaluate. Terming may or may not be your only option at that time.

Pinning her on your lap is not a good idea. It could get you reported. Physical restraint is a big no-no, now.
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Heidi 09:26 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by Catherder:
I think you have misunderstood or I misspoke.

The sticker on the calendar is for YOU. One sticker. Put it on there for 30 days from today.

30 day probation. WITH a disciplinary plan carried out with the parents.

A team effort.

At 30 days, re-evaluate. Terming may or may not be your only option at that time.

Pinning her on your lap is not a good idea. It could get you reported. Physical restraint is a big no-no, now.
no, someone else suggested that...

As for restraining, they frown on that here, too, but she was kicking and hitting me, so I stopped her. If I would have carried her to the car without shoes, I would still have been restraining her, in theory. This will certainly happen again...I want to be prepared. What do you think?
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wdmmom 09:31 AM 01-12-2012
Do you have a "Naughty Chair" or a mat or time out?

I would put her there and put her shoes on and her coat on. She can sit there until a DCP comes.

Kids don't run the show. You need to be the enforcer and lay out the consequences and let her know you mean business!

When DCP asks why she is sitting in time out, you can tell her that she is aggressive and needed a time out.

If it becomes more frequent, ask DCP for a conference and work out a discipline plan.
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Heidi 09:35 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
Do you have a "Naughty Chair" or a mat or time out?

I would put her there and put her shoes on and her coat on. She can sit there until a DCP comes.

Kids don't run the show. You need to be the enforcer and lay out the consequences and let her know you mean business!

When DCP asks why she is sitting in time out, you can tell her that she is aggressive and needed a time out.

If it becomes more frequent, ask DCP for a conference and work out a discipline plan.
OH, this is just no fun!

Time out chair, which I have used, is a battle in itself. She will not stay put. There have been times when I have had to put her on it 15 or 20 times before she stays. Oh, and the kicking when I put her back on the seat...yeah, again!
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wdmmom 09:41 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
OH, this is just no fun!

Time out chair, which I have used, is a battle in itself. She will not stay put. There have been times when I have had to put her on it 15 or 20 times before she stays. Oh, and the kicking when I put her back on the seat...yeah, again!
Lay down the law! Sit means stay put. She's testing you. Until you get nasty, she's going to continue pushing you. Time to push back.

I went as far as getting a playard. If time out is too much of a fight, there is 35 square feet of your own play space! Have at it!
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Ariana 10:29 AM 01-12-2012
How about trying something other than heavy handed discipline? It seems to be the way most people approach these situations and obviously it's not working IMO. How about doing a circle time focused on talking about feelings and being angry. I have finally taught my 2.5 yr old daughter to say "I'm angry" instead of hitting and throwing stuff. I have a book called "when Sophie gets angry" and I credit this book for helping my daughter with her frustrations. Acknowledge her feelings, ask her to help you come up with a solution. She appears to me to be crying out for control and connection.

I'll give you an example of something I did. My daughter tantrums every time I have to change her diaper. I was so tired of fighting with her that I decided to use a timer. I told her I was setting the timer and when it rang it would be time to change her diaper. It worked and has been working ever since. I took the control away from me and gave it to the timer. It may or may not work but it's a creative way to solve an issue that is really about control. Think long and hard about how you could give her back some control and try a few things
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Cat Herder 10:31 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
no, someone else suggested that...

As for restraining, they frown on that here, too, but she was kicking and hitting me, so I stopped her. If I would have carried her to the car without shoes, I would still have been restraining her, in theory. This will certainly happen again...I want to be prepared. What do you think?
Sorry... I am on a small screen today. I missed that.

I most likely would have had Mom take her first, without shoes, to the car THEN come back for the one behaving.

Hand the pick-up problem back to Mom. Let her hit and kick Mom.

Time to schedule a conference to come up with an appropriate discipline plan together, IMHO.
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mac60 10:47 AM 01-12-2012
Clarification please.....What the heck is "pinning her to my lap"....what does that mean. I have never heard of it before. Just curious.
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Heidi 11:03 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by mac60:
Clarification please.....What the heck is "pinning her to my lap"....what does that mean. I have never heard of it before. Just curious.
Lol...

I set her on the bench to put her shoes on, but she kept kicking and screaming, so my lap and held onto her (still kicking & yelling let me go...let me go...), put her shoes on, and tied them. By then, this episode was 20-25 minutes in, and everyone else was out the door. I was not wiling to extend the event nor day any further.
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Mommy2One 11:06 AM 01-12-2012
I'm not a daycare provider, just a mom, so this may not work in a group setting or with every child but our 2.5 year old has recently started throwing fits (not kicking and hitting, just crying and screaming 'no') occasionally when asked/told to do something like clean up her toys or come over for a diaper change. We have started having her take a time out in her room when redirecting, simplifying the task or making a song/game of it isn't working. We do not have a set amount of time she has to sit there, she can come out when she's calm and ready to cooperate - this prevents a secondary battle and surprisingly she actually does stay put until she's feeling better. The timeout is less frustrating for us and so far it's been much more effective than trying to reason or battle with her when she's being irrational. It seems like the amount of time it takes her to calm down is getting shorter too and sometimes just asking "Do you need a timeout?" is enough to get her cooperation.
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Cat Herder 11:17 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by Mommy2One:
I'm not a daycare provider, just a mom, so this may not work in a group setting or with every child but our 2.5 year old has recently started throwing fits (not kicking and hitting, just crying and screaming 'no') occasionally when asked/told to do something like clean up her toys or come over for a diaper change. We have started having her take a time out in her room when redirecting, simplifying the task or making a song/game of it isn't working. We do not have a set amount of time she has to sit there, she can come out when she's calm and ready to cooperate - this prevents a secondary battle and surprisingly she actually does stay put until she's feeling better. The timeout is less frustrating for us and so far it's been much more effective than trying to reason or battle with her when she's being irrational. It seems like the amount of time it takes her to calm down is getting shorter too and sometimes just asking "Do you need a timeout?" is enough to get her cooperation.
What you are describing is what I call a "Quiet Center". It is what I use more often than not, here. It works very well in group care. Mine has soft seating, books and is closed off on 3 sides for a "secluded" feel.

Most go there on their own when they need a bit of "me time. When a tantrum begins, I point to it and they go on their own. They come out when they are ready to rejoin the group, granted when they are small I prompt them with "Are you finished? Ready to come back?".

I love that you do this at home, too. Ironically, I have been trying to get my teens to let me have one, but to no avail, they just keep nagging at me.
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Blackcat31 11:18 AM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by Mommy2One:
I'm not a daycare provider, just a mom, so this may not work in a group setting or with every child but our 2.5 year old has recently started throwing fits (not kicking and hitting, just crying and screaming 'no') occasionally when asked/told to do something like clean up her toys or come over for a diaper change. We have started having her take a time out in her room when redirecting, simplifying the task or making a song/game of it isn't working. We do not have a set amount of time she has to sit there, she can come out when she's calm and ready to cooperate - this prevents a secondary battle and surprisingly she actually does stay put until she's feeling better. The timeout is less frustrating for us and so far it's been much more effective than trying to reason or battle with her when she's being irrational. It seems like the amount of time it takes her to calm down is getting shorter too and sometimes just asking "Do you need a timeout?" is enough to get her cooperation.
Nice to hear a parent's point of view
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jojosmommy 11:40 AM 01-12-2012
If a child refuses to get ready I leave it to the parent to get them ready. If they cant get it handled in a few min then I tell them to leave without their kid. "I see *** wont get ready and Im sure your busy (wink) why dont you go and maybe ***x will be ready later." Every kid gets ready in 2 seconds flat and only once have I ever had a kid try that nonsense again. We watched as mom drove away. Tough love. Mom returned after a spin around the block and that kid is the best behaved now. Finally believes im serious and mom is too.
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Blackcat31 12:25 PM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by jojosmommy:
If a child refuses to get ready I leave it to the parent to get them ready. If they cant get it handled in a few min then I tell them to leave without their kid. "I see *** wont get ready and Im sure your busy (wink) why dont you go and maybe ***x will be ready later." Every kid gets ready in 2 seconds flat and only once have I ever had a kid try that nonsense again. We watched as mom drove away. Tough love. Mom returned after a spin around the block and that kid is the best behaved now. Finally believes im serious and mom is too.
word of warning: I tried this a few years ago. The kid waved goodbye to mom with a smile on his face.

I thought it was a super idea at the time but I totally did not anticipate the kid not caring.
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Heidi 12:44 PM 01-12-2012
I'm pretty sure mom would not go for that! I would totally do that, but am pretty sure she would not. I base this on other similar interactions where I have illicited that kind of "back up". If she does it at all, her body lanuage says "oh, my poor little darling..."
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mac60 12:45 PM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
Lol...

I set her on the bench to put her shoes on, but she kept kicking and screaming, so my lap and held onto her (still kicking & yelling let me go...let me go...), put her shoes on, and tied them. By then, this episode was 20-25 minutes in, and everyone else was out the door. I was not wiling to extend the event nor day any further.
LOL, when I read that, I automatically thought of "safety pin", duh. Been a stressful week with the full moon. I understand, and you did nothing wrong.
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Heidi 12:49 PM 01-12-2012
Originally Posted by mac60:
LOL, when I read that, I automatically thought of "safety pin", duh. Been a stressful week with the full moon. I understand, and you did nothing wrong.
Oh no, then I would have used duct tape. Pins get too messy!

before you all lynch me...juuust kidding!
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Tags:discipline plan, hitting, kicking, preparing children for school, training, violence, violent behaviour
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