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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Feedback Please, Punishment
Cat Herder 08:52 AM 10-21-2014
"... and as such Childcare Providers would be providing written documentation, during the initial tour, that they have a history of ineffective classroom management if they incorporate a punishment plan into their program handbook."

Examples of punishment given:

* Time-Out
* Suspension
* Expulsion


And now your turn......
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Controlled Chaos 08:55 AM 10-21-2014
I use time out as a last resort for older children...I know those options are extreme but are expulsion and terming a child the same thing?
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Cat Herder 08:59 AM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Controlled Chaos:
I use time out as a last resort for older children...I know those options are extreme but are expulsion and terming a child the same thing?
Yes, termination of child for behavioral issues is considered expulsion.

Termination of parent for payment issues is not.

(as a side note, termination of parents for their behavioral issues is also viewed as your failure... I will save that for a day my blood pressure is not so high. )
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KSDC 09:06 AM 10-21-2014
Where is this quote from? My state requires us to have a written discipline plan AND the parents have to be informed of the policy. So, it is in my handbook that the parents get at the interview.

This is what I have:
Your child/children will be disciplined in a manner appropriate to the situation.
This discipline is not abusive and does NOT include corporal punishment. (Usual
discipline consists of redirection and cooling down periods.) If needed, we will
have a conference to discuss behavioral problems and ways to solve them.
Acceptable behavior is encouraged by giving positive verbal rewards.
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Cat Herder 09:18 AM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by KSDC:
Where is this quote from? .
Parent education classes on choosing "appropriate" childcare sponsored by your tax dollars.

***I am not so much concerned with the who, where and when of the classes than the social acceptance of the concept as a whole.

Also, the current provider training says "discipline" is your curriculum, schedule and environment, not "punishment". Totally different birds. Discipline is to teach or guide. It is a vocabulary thing.

IYHO, Are childcare providers "unacceptable" if they are ever in the position of having to punish a child's behavior, birth to 12?

Of course you gals can take this topic where you want to, I will cherry pick what I need. I especially like it when my own view is challenged. Bring it.
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Blackcat31 09:32 AM 10-21-2014
Having a temporary loss of higher brain functions today...

Can you re-phrase the question?


I am not understanding...
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Leigh 09:36 AM 10-21-2014
Punishment is a last resort. And some kids actually only respond to it. Those kids, IME, are the ones who are punished at home. I had two little boys whose caregivers hit them-a lot. Those boys would respond only to removal of privileges and time-out. They would straight out ask me "are you going to spank me?". That is the ONLY thing they responded to. I work with a children's therapist often-she is the one who suggested time-out for these boys. For one of them, time-out for EVERY infraction (he had ODD and was 100% out of control). It sucked for me to do it-I spent most of my day supervising him, but it did help him learn some self-control. Even though this one improved, I wound up terming when the brother's behavior started to escalate-no way was I going through that again!

I now try to screen out people who hit their kids at my interviews. It's not worth dealing with those parents or their kids to me.

Is punishment necessary? Sometimes.
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Annalee 10:06 AM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
"... and as such Childcare Providers would be providing written documentation, during the initial tour, that they have a history of ineffective classroom management if they incorporate a punishment plan into their program handbook."

Examples of punishment given:

* Time-Out
* Suspension
* Expulsion


And now your turn......
I use the term "redirection" in my handbook.....removing the child from the situation.....I explain how important is it is for client/provider to work together....if a child reaches a point they are harming their own self or others repeatedly, they will be terminated...I have only terminated 4 times in 22 plus years of child care... Only one of the terminations were for bad behavior, the others were because of the clients not following contract/policy.
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Cat Herder 11:25 AM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:

Can you re-phrase the question?

Absolutely

In your honest opinion, are childcare providers "unacceptable" (unprofessional, not appropriate) if they are ever in the position of having to punish a child's behavior, birth to 12?

Is it really a sign that the provider is incompetent in classroom management technique? Poor training? Uneducated?

(If you want to add the clarified question to the original post, feel free. I am not sure I'd do it right.)
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daycarediva 11:37 AM 10-21-2014
I feel like my OWN head is going to explode. Call me incompetent, uneducated, and lacking in classroom management skills, but a child typically comes to me with some behavior that either isn't acceptable in group care or I don't allow in my home. I use TO for any aggression, and everything else is a rule reminder /'make better choices' conversation. My kids are all 2+.

I also, *gasp* discipline my OWN children, is that considered poor "home" management?

I think this lack of discipline is creating an entire generation of children who believe there are no consequences for their actions. It is NEVER the child's fault, and they will never learn to take responsibility for anything!
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KidGrind 11:50 AM 10-21-2014


I feel like Iíve stepped into a hornetís nest.


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Cat Herder 11:53 AM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by KidGrind:


I feel like I’ve stepped into a hornet’s nest.

No, no.... It is for a compare/contrast piece. I can really see both sides and am on the fence... I think that is my sneaky professors plan. To confuse and daze.

You can even give two (or ten) viewpoints and never reveal which one is yours...

I love devils advocate posts.

The point is to really think on it and reflect from various perspectives. Parent, provider, former daycare kid, teacher or next door neighbor.

It also makes for a great debate.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 11:57 AM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
I feel like my OWN head is going to explode. Call me incompetent, uneducated, and lacking in classroom management skills, but a child typically comes to me with some behavior that either isn't acceptable in group care or I don't allow in my home. I use TO for any aggression, and everything else is a rule reminder /'make better choices' conversation. My kids are all 2+.

I also, *gasp* discipline my OWN children, is that considered poor "home" management?

I think this lack of discipline is creating an entire generation of children who believe there are no consequences for their actions. It is NEVER the child's fault, and they will never learn to take responsibility for anything!
This. ALL this.

Our society is going so far away from the Bible that anything mentioned in it has become bad. Discipline, punishment, consequences...all apart of it. Bam.
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KSDC 12:04 PM 10-21-2014
I see it as a difference between discipline and punishment.

Discipline is all the things we do to help teach a child the socially acceptable ways to behave. This includes routines and schedules. Encouraging positive behavior with "high fives" and positive verbal praise. Teaching "good" behaviors.

AND, it includes stopping negative behaviors. This includes verbal correction and redirection. It can also include removing the child from whatever it was that was influencing the poor behavior choices.

This is all part and parcel of "discipline" by my definition.

Punishment is just giving negative consequences for "bad" behavior.

Just my two cents...
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Annalee 12:04 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
This. ALL this.

Our society is going so far away from the Bible that anything mentioned in it has become bad. Discipline, punishment, consequences...all apart of it. Bam.
I agree with this wholeheartedly and firmly believe in accountability/responsiblity, but i use the "redirection" approach for daycare due to state regulations...I have become crafty with redirection leading to a sense of consequences for the child's actions.....I DO NOT use redirection in my own home but that is a whole other topic
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KiddieCahoots 12:21 PM 10-21-2014
Sounds like discipline is being used to define limitations to me.

Sure....take one more thing away from providers leaving us standing with our pants down .........

When you apply the limitations and routine, then there is less discipline.
Limitations start at home and are carried over in the daycare.
If they are not started at home or consistent with their second home away from home, and we are left with aggressive little tykes that push limits, then what would they have us do?
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Hunni Bee 12:21 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
"... and as such Childcarincludesers would be providing written documentation, during the initial tour, that they have a history of ineffective classroom management if they incorporate a punishment plan into their program handbook."

Examples of punishment given:

* Time-Out
* Suspension
* Expulsion


And now your turn......
"They must also have a written plan in place that includes more acceptable discipline practices, such as:

*Coddling
*Giving the child 100 choices
*Laughing off wrong behaviors
*Never using the word 'no'"
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Annalee 12:29 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
Sounds like discipline is being used to define limitations to me.

Sure....take one more thing away from providers leaving us standing with our pants down .........

When you apply the limitations and routine, then there is less discipline.
Limitations start at home and are carried over in the daycare.
If they are not started at home or consistent with their second home away from home, and we are left with aggressive little tykes that push limits, then what would they have us do?
I have been in my own FCC for 22 plus years....the past 10 are full of homes with NO discipline....it seems to be all about what makes the child happy and the child never learns to cope with the surroundings/situations going on around them! Each child, no matter how many siblings they have might as well be an "only child", receiving whatever it takes to make them 'not cry'....The daycare environment I have does deter some of this but even though children are in daycare more waking hours than their own homes, their own home has the biggest influence....Changes in society like these make child care providers' lives much harder.....I do remember the days where children simply behaved and followed directions just because it was a respect for authority and it was the right thing to do.... There are still some good kids out there with great homes but they are NOT in the majority right now!
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Blackcat31 12:35 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Absolutely

In your honest opinion, are childcare providers "unacceptable" (unprofessional, not appropriate) if they are ever in the position of having to punish a child's behavior, birth to 12?

Is it really a sign that the provider is incompetent in classroom management technique? Poor training? Uneducated?

(If you want to add the clarified question to the original post, feel free. I am not sure I'd do it right.)
Ideally, IF an environment is set up correctly and each student comes in with the same abilities and disabilities, then yes... a provider/teacher is not doing something correctly if she/he has to punish a student.

However, like DCDiva said...these kids ALL come with a unique set of issues (some negative and some positive) so in the real world, an environment can only meet the needs of those students it was specifically designed around.....leaving some kids having and/or needing to be punished.

But there again, is that the students fault or the providers?

This is like the chicken and the egg....

Hmmm, I need to think a bit more about this..... but so far that is my answer as it applies to my imaginary world.
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KiddieCahoots 12:38 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Annalee:
I have been in my own FCC for 22 plus years....the past 10 are full of homes with NO discipline....it seems to be all about what makes the child happy and the child never learns to cope with the surroundings/situations going on around them! Each child, no matter how many siblings they have might as well be an "only child", receiving whatever it takes to make them 'not cry'....The daycare environment I have does deter some of this but even though children are in daycare more waking hours than their own homes, their own home has the biggest influence....Changes in society like these make child care providers' lives much harder.....I do remember the days where children simply behaved and followed directions just because it was a respect for authority and it was the right thing to do.... There are still some good kids out there with great homes but they are NOT in the majority right now!
Right!? And then the topic of questioning whether the provider is "unacceptable" will arise for instating limitations/discipline. Good grief!
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Annalee 12:41 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Ideally, IF an environment is set up correctly and each student comes in with the same abilities and disabilities, then yes... a provider/teacher is not doing something correctly if she/he has to punish a student.

However, like DCDiva said...these kids ALL come with a unique set of issues (some negative and some positive) so in the real world, an environment can only meet the needs of those students it was specifically designed around.....leaving some kids having and/or needing to be punished.

But there again, is that the students fault or the providers?

This is like the chicken and the egg....

Hmmm, I need to think a bit more about this..... but so far that is my answer as it applies to my imaginary world.
I, too, think the environment is key to behavior in a child care program, but I am not sure it will ALWAYS meet the needs of everyone form a behavior standpoint due to outside influences.
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Unregistered 12:42 PM 10-21-2014
To some degree I think it depends on the age.

For the really little ones I refer to it as behavioral guidance. Toddlers need to be guided as to what is acceptable or not. They also need time to gain impulse control. So Redirection, short simple explanations of what to do, verbal correction, demonstrating desired behavior, removal of objects, or time away to cool off more often used. I also set up the daycare space in a way that limits the amount of "no" I have to say.

As they get older and understand the rules, then more accountability and consequences start to occur. If you throw a toy, the toy is no longer available for you to play with. If you push the children ahead of you so you can be first in line, then you get to come be directly in front of me and go last. If you keep tipping back you chair at lunch, then your chair will be removed and you can stand. If we are acting out physically, then you become my shadow to keep everyone safe. Are those consequences or punishment? Or is it in the way it is delivered to the child? Or is it in out intention? Is our aim to scold, or our aim to teach and keep everyone safe?

I'm not at the preteen years yet, so I'm not sure about the upper ages. Come then my delivery may very well be viewed as punishment rather than guidance and consequences.
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KiddieCahoots 01:05 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Ideally, IF an environment is set up correctly and each student comes in with the same abilities and disabilities, then yes... a provider/teacher is not doing something correctly if she/he has to punish a student.

However, like DCDiva said...these kids ALL come with a unique set of issues (some negative and some positive) so in the real world, an environment can only meet the needs of those students it was specifically designed around.....leaving some kids having and/or needing to be punished.
But there again, is that the students fault or the providers?

This is like the chicken and the egg....

Hmmm, I need to think a bit more about this..... but so far that is my answer as it applies to my imaginary world.
I like how this starts....It reminds me of the old Walgreens commercial......"in the land of Walgreens where everything is perfect"................

So should we as providers be more apt to determine what children should or shouldn't attend our child care based on their particular needs? And if so, does that make us responsible or "unacceptable" for not choosing the right type of child to fit our program?
Cause if this is where we are going with this, then where will all the children with inappropriate behaviors go to childcare? Lol!
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SignMeUp 01:26 PM 10-21-2014
It does depend on age. And family and many other things.
I believe in a balance of discipline that tilts decidedly toward noticing the positive. Even for teens And toddlers <--personally I find the toddlers much easier than the teens.

But I have a question for the deciders who make the decisions
If we don't meet their standards:
Will we be PUNISHED?
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Angelsj 01:38 PM 10-21-2014
I have gotten several children who were 'problem children' in other daycares, something I often did not know about until it slipped later. I RARELY use timeout or any other punishment. Most often I help the children work through what is happening and pay close attention to developing issues. So from that viewpoint, yes, if I have to resort to punishment, I am doing something wrong. I, personally, look for what I could have done to intervene earlier, change the way I speak, or change the environment to keep this behavior from happening again.

I think saying "the provider is a failure" or "has a history of ineffective classroom management" is really pushing the envelope. Just because I have a plan for behavior that is outside the norm does not mean I implement it on any sort of regular basis. I have a "time out" plan or cool down time. I use it maybe twice a month (and this child is ADHD, with some serious behavior issues.) I have other children who have been here for 2-4 years and have NEVER had a time out.

Having a plan is not bad, it is preparedness. And I am sorry, but if I have a child who is harming the other children and I cannot keep them safe, that child is going to be "expelled." If that makes me a bad provider, so be it.
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Blackcat31 01:42 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
I like how this starts....It reminds me of the old Walgreens commercial......"in the land of Walgreens where everything is perfect"................
LOL! I was thinking along the same lines when I typed it

Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
So should we as providers be more apt to determine what children should or shouldn't attend our child care based on their particular needs? And if so, does that make us responsible or "unacceptable" for not choosing the right type of child to fit our program?!
Yes. I have passed on many families/children due to things not aligning properly or if I feel they parents practice or believe in something I can't live with.

For me, I believe that type of "matching" is why I don't have many issues or struggle with some common issues other providers have.

It may also be because of MY personality as I am one to immediately address something if there is any question or confusion but I would like to believe that it is also do to proper fit just as much.

..and yes, in my opinion it would make my choice and irresponsible or unacceptable one if I allowed a child to enroll and attend even despite knowing that my program is not a good fit for him/her and/or the family.


Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
Cause if this is where we are going with this, then where will all the children with inappropriate behaviors go to childcare? Lol!
To providers who have different beliefs than I do or to providers who allow behaviors that I do not.

As it is clear on this site, the manner in which a lot of providers run their businesses or what their personal beliefs are is as wide and as far apart as the walls of the Grand Canyon so that common phrase "there is a right fit for everyone" is VERY true and VERY applicable in the child care field.
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KiddieCahoots 01:53 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by SignMeUp:
But I have a question for the deciders who make the decisions
If we don't meet their standards:
Will we be PUNISHED?


Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Yes. I have passed on many families/children due to things not aligning properly or if I feel they parents practice or believe in something I can't live with.

For me, I believe that type of "matching" is why I don't have many issues or struggle with some common issues other providers have.

It may also be because of MY personality as I am one to immediately address something if there is any question or confusion but I would like to believe that it is also do to proper fit just as much.

..and yes, in my opinion it would make my choice and irresponsible or unacceptable one if I allowed a child to enroll and attend even despite knowing that my program is not a good fit for him/her and/or the family.

Does make ya wonder if regulations will ever try to hop on this to enforce upon us too.
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daycare 02:04 PM 10-21-2014
I don't really know how to answer this but this is my thought on it.


Discipline is not the same as punishment. Instead, discipline has to do more with teaching, and involves teaching your child right from wrong, how to respect the rights of others, which behaviors are acceptable and which are not, with a goal of helping to develop a child who feels secure and loved, is self-confident, self-disciplined and knows how to control his impulses, and who does not get overly frustrated with the normal stresses of everyday life
All children are different and have different temperaments and developmental levels and a style of discipline that may work with other children may not work with yours
It is much easier to reinforce good behavior than to have to try and change bad behaviors.


I believe that most Punishments are not logical or natural and punishments often defeat the purpose of discipline.

I would like to think that I use logical and natural consequences for the children that relate to the behavior.
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daycarediva 04:57 PM 10-21-2014
Originally Posted by Hunni Bee:
"They must also have a written plan in place that includes more acceptable discipline practices, such as:

*Coddling
*Giving the child 100 choices
*Laughing off wrong behaviors
*Never using the word 'no'"
HAHA!!!!

I agree with what BC is saying as well, the majority of my kids/clients who do the 'best' here, have similar parenting styles and priorities. I have let a few who were not good fits slip through the cracks. They interviewed great, too. So frustrating. I am terming more than I ever have before to look for the 'right fit' clients.

This IS the real world though, and even my best fit clients allow things I do not. Eg. dcb is allowed to play rough. We do not play that way here.

Is it no longer a good fit? Should I allow it? Shouldn't dcb learn that different places have different behavioral expectations? (Church vs. playground) Should dcm back me and enforce to dcb that rough play is not allowed at 'school' only at home with his cousin? Should I not CORRECT that behavior in my home?
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Tags:discipline plan, discipline policy, research, training
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