Unlicensed/Illegal Daycare And Taxes

So I have a silly question. If a parent takes their kid to an unlicensed/illegal (operating with more than one family) "daycare", do they get to claim the money they paid for daycare on their taxes?

Just curious...

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So I have a silly question. If a parent takes their kid to an unlicensed/illegal (operating with more than one family) "daycare", do they get to claim the money they paid for daycare on their taxes?

Just curious...

Absolutely! Doesn't matter who you paid money to. If you paid out, you can claim it.

[Daycaremomof2]

Just an FYI: Not all unlicensed daycares are illegal.

You can fill out a W10 form and give it to your provider to sign. They need to put their ss #, name, and address on it, and you can file with that.

[Cat Herder]

First, There is a difference is LEGALLY unlicensed and ILLEGAL daycare. Apples and Bananas.

Here you can have 2 kids from two families without registering with the State.

In some States it is 5

ALL daycare providers MUST claim the income...no LEGAL exceptions.

IMHO, Any parents willing to use illegal daycare, under the table pay, are just as guilty as the provider.

[Meyou]

Originally Posted by Catherder

First, There is a difference is LEGALLY unlicensed and ILLEGAL daycare. Apples and Bananas.

Here you can have 2 kids from two families without registering with the State.

In some States it is 5

ALL daycare providers MUST claim the income...no LEGAL exceptions.

IMHO, Any parent willing to use illegal daycare, under the table pay, are just as guilty as the provider.

Correct. I can have 6 children other than my own without a license. I still claim my income and my parents claim what they pay me.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Meyou

Correct. I can have 6 children other than my own without a license. I still claim my income and my parents claim what they pay me.

I am still soooo jealous of you.... 6 is all I can have even with a CDA and hoops.

Sorry.... back on topic.

[TomCopeland]

The rule here is a little tricky. If a parent uses a child care provider who cares for less than six children, then the parent can claim the child care tax credit, whether or not the provider is operating illegally under state law.

If the provider is caring for six or more children, then the parent may not claim the child care tax credit unless the provider is licensed, or exempt from licensing, according to their state law.

Join me for my webinar "2011 Family Child Care Tax Update: How to Reduce Your Taxes" on February 9th, 8:30-10:00pm Eastern time: http://events.r20.constantcontact.co...&llr=yatrx4cab

Originally Posted by Meyou

Correct. I can have 6 children other than my own without a license. I still claim my income and my parents claim what they pay me.

what form do you file if your are unlicensed?

[Punkin.Butts]

I am unlisc. but operating legally.
In MO your allowed to have 4 unrelated (to me) children total without a lisc.
It can be from 4 different families if you want.
My children, neices, nephews, and grandchildren do NOT count in that 4. I can have As many of them as i can handle on top of the 4 unrelated children.

I file all the exact same documents as a liscensed provider or care center would.

[TomCopeland]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

what form do you file if your are unlicensed?

You file the same tax forms whether you are licensed or not. Use Schedule C for your income and expenses. Use Form 8829 for your house expenses.

Originally Posted by TomCopeland

You file the same tax forms whether you are licensed or not. Use Schedule C for your income and expenses. Use Form 8829 for your house expenses.

mr copeland,

ive run across your website when looking up info . just wanted to say thank you for the clear concise year end receipt page- i honestly thought i was going nuts until i ran into your page.

question though: ive filed a schedule C way back when for a paper delivery route i once had, now ive moved on to in home daycare. ive never filed a form 8829. what would go on this form? just mortgage/home insurance expenses or would trash/gas/electricity expenses go on this form? thank you.

[TomCopeland]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

mr copeland,

ive run across your website when looking up info . just wanted to say thank you for the clear concise year end receipt page- i honestly thought i was going nuts until i ran into your page.

question though: ive filed a schedule C way back when for a paper delivery route i once had, now ive moved on to in home daycare. ive never filed a form 8829. what would go on this form? just mortgage/home insurance expenses or would trash/gas/electricity expenses go on this form? thank you.

Put the following expenses onto Form 8829: house insurance, house repairs, property tax, mortgage interest, utilities (gas/electric/sewer/electricity/water/trash), house depreciation, house rent.

This was my former daycare person. She was watching way more than the legal amount of children. Cash only, refused to give her SS# and was not paying taxes. We recently fired her and I am debating if I should report her of if I would get hit as well for not claiming what we paid to her the past nine years. Full disclosure, this person has been watching kids from her home for 15 years and not paying taxes. What should I do? Look the other way?

[hwichlaz]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This was my former daycare person. She was watching way more than the legal amount of children. Cash only, refused to give her SS# and was not paying taxes. We recently fired her and I am debating if I should report her of if I would get hit as well for not claiming what we paid to her the past nine years. Full disclosure, this person has been watching kids from her home for 15 years and not paying taxes. What should I do? Look the other way?

you don't have to claim daycare expense as far as I know, but you were satisfied with her for 9 years, it sounds like sour grapes at this point....I say stay in your lane.

[284878]

Originally Posted by hwichlaz

you don't have to claim daycare expense as far as I know, but you were satisfied with her for 9 years, it sounds like sour grapes at this point....I say stay in your lane.

The provider doesn't have to claim expenses but they are required to claim 100% of their income. The poster was talking about someone not claiming all their income and being over ratio.

[284878]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This was my former daycare person. She was watching way more than the legal amount of children. Cash only, refused to give her SS# and was not paying taxes. We recently fired her and I am debating if I should report her of if I would get hit as well for not claiming what we paid to her the past nine years. Full disclosure, this person has been watching kids from her home for 15 years and not paying taxes. What should I do? Look the other way?

Personally I think you should talk to Tom Copeland about this. He commented to the poster above yours and has his web link in his post. If he doesn't respond, go to his website and ask him there.
Also in the meantime, browse his blogs for for other information that may help you.

[TomCopeland]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

what form do you file if your are unlicensed?

File Schedule C. If you are legally unlicensed you can also claim house expenses on Form 8829. If you are operating illegally you can't claim any house expenses (those shown on Form 8829).

[LostMyMarbles]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This was my former daycare person. She was watching way more than the legal amount of children. Cash only, refused to give her SS# and was not paying taxes. We recently fired her and I am debating if I should report her of if I would get hit as well for not claiming what we paid to her the past nine years. Full disclosure, this person has been watching kids from her home for 15 years and not paying taxes. What should I do? Look the other way?

Clearly what she was doing was wrong by not reporting it. But I’m sure you were told upon enrollment that she would not be claiming it, and probably gave you a discount due to that. She was wrong, but I feel you were wrong for enrolling their knowing she wasn’t claiming.

[284878]

Originally Posted by LostMyMarbles

Clearly what she was doing was wrong by not reporting it. But I’m sure you were told upon enrollment that she would not be claiming it, and probably gave you a discount due to that. She was wrong, but I feel you were wrong for enrolling their knowing she wasn’t claiming.

That is true. But sadly, at least here, there no laws for being stupid and putting their child in an unsafe environment. (Although he keeps risking his child for a discount, he may not have his child much longer)

As a provider, I think she should be turned in, even though he maybe doing it out of spite and the other families are going to be left with out care. Either way, she is out of ratio and should be reported.

He could just report her to the IRS, Tom has a blog about how, and then she wouldn't be shut down right away but get audited instead.

If you are illegally unlicensed, what happens if someone tries to claim with child care tax credits?

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you are illegally unlicensed, what happens if someone tries to claim with child care tax credits?

This depends on what state you are in and how many children you are illegally caring for.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

This depends on what state you are in and how many children you are illegally caring for.

CA, 14 kids?

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

CA, 14 kids?

I would make the front page of my local newspaper with that. And not in a good way.

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

CA, 14 kids?

Yikes... I agree with Cat Herder.

That is pretty risky considering the fine for operating illegally in CA is up to $200 PER day PER child and could be a felony charge.

If a parent, neighbor or anyone withi this info reports you, you could be facing enormous legal issues as CA is one of the strictest states in prosecuting illegal care providers.

https://www.berkeleyparentsnetwork.o...ed%20operation.

I went and did a bit of reading on the IRS site and apparently if you are operating illegally and caring for more than 6 children, it sounds like the parent won't be able to claim their expenses and if they try to the IRS would be alerted.

I am not 100% positive as reading the IRS site is as easy as reading a upside down and backwards but bottom line is you could end up in some really big legal trouble.

I'd research getting licensed and start the process.
The faster you become legal the less trouble you might face.

[TomCopeland]

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

Yikes... I agree with Cat Herder.

That is pretty risky considering the fine for operating illegally in CA is up to $200 PER day PER child and could be a felony charge.

If a parent, neighbor or anyone withi this info reports you, you could be facing enormous legal issues as CA is one of the strictest states in prosecuting illegal care providers.

https://www.berkeleyparentsnetwork.o...ed%20operation.

I went and did a bit of reading on the IRS site and apparently if you are operating illegally and caring for more than 6 children, it sounds like the parent won't be able to claim their expenses and if they try to the IRS would be alerted.

I am not 100% positive as reading the IRS site is as easy as reading a upside down and backwards but bottom line is you could end up in some really big legal trouble.

I'd research getting licensed and start the process.
The faster you become legal the less trouble you might face.

You are correct. If you are in violation of your state child care licensing rules and care for more than 6 children, parents cannot claim the child care tax credit.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

Yikes... I agree with Cat Herder.

That is pretty risky considering the fine for operating illegally in CA is up to $200 PER day PER child and could be a felony charge.

If a parent, neighbor or anyone withi this info reports you, you could be facing enormous legal issues as CA is one of the strictest states in prosecuting illegal care providers.

https://www.berkeleyparentsnetwork.o...ed%20operation.

I went and did a bit of reading on the IRS site and apparently if you are operating illegally and caring for more than 6 children, it sounds like the parent won't be able to claim their expenses and if they try to the IRS would be alerted.

I am not 100% positive as reading the IRS site is as easy as reading a upside down and backwards but bottom line is you could end up in some really big legal trouble.

I'd research getting licensed and start the process.
The faster you become legal the less trouble you might face.

So for more information, I took over the after school care program for a school. Originally I thought that I was license exempt, but the more I looked into it, I don't think that I am exempt. I just found this out last week, and immediately began the licensing process. I really didn't want to do anything illegal, but now I am beyond terrified that I'm going to face serious problems.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So for more information, I took over the after school care program for a school. Originally I thought that I was license exempt, but the more I looked into it, I don't think that I am exempt. I just found this out last week, and immediately began the licensing process. I really didn't want to do anything illegal, but now I am beyond terrified that I'm going to face serious problems.

If you call your local CCR&R now and ask for technical assistance, they will walk you through it. Probably even give you grant money and supplies. You won't be in any trouble. It will only be a problem if they find you, first. Most times, even if they find you, if you are willing to work with them, they gladly help you. They are not in it to prosecute, they want safe places for children in their community. It's the ones who know better they prosecute. https://rrnetwork.org/

[Cat Herder]

Here is the direct contact info. Sorry, it took me a minute to find it for you. Don't be scared. They will help.

https://rrnetwork.org/assets/general...April_2019.pdf

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

Here is the direct contact info. Sorry, it took me a minute to find it for you. Don't be scared. They will help.

https://rrnetwork.org/assets/general...April_2019.pdf

Thank you for the info. I have worked at this school, running their after school program for 4 years now as an employee, ( so we were license exempt) and they were kind enough to let me start my own business and run it on my own, and now I'm running into all this info that I wasn't previously aware of. I'm trying to do everything as legally as I can.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thank you for the info. I have worked at this school, running their after school program for 4 years now as an employee, ( so we were license exempt) and they were kind enough to let me start my own business and run it on my own, and now I'm running into all this info that I wasn't previously aware of. I'm trying to do everything as legally as I can.

After school programs have a lot more leeway, anyway. What you now describe is so very different from what you originally posted, to us. When you said illegal provider/14 kids we picture kids laying in some living room floor watching cartoons, eating cheetos and drinking mountain dew for 10-12 hours per day.

Programs that operate for less than 4 hours and only have kids over 5 are not even required to be licensed, here. They just have to pass a fire/occupancy inspection from the county. Their ratio is 30/2. I think you will be just fine.

Now, I kindof want cheetos....

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

After school programs have a lot more leeway, anyway. What you now describe is so very different from what you originally posted to us. When you said illegal provider/14 kids we picture kids laying in some living room floor watching cartoons, eating cheetos and drinking mountain dew for 10-12 hours per day.

Programs that operate for less than 4 hours and only have kids over 5 are not even required to be licensed, here. They just have to pass a fire/occupancy inspection from the county. I think you will be just fine.

Now, I kindof want cheetos....

See that is why I originally thought we didn't have to be licensed! But I believe we could only operate unlicensed if it's 4 hours per week, not day :/ unless you can correct me on this?

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

See that is why I originally thought we didn't have to be licensed! But I believe we could only operate unlicensed if it's 4 hours per week, not day :/ unless you can correct me on this?

I would only be quoting what I found online. I really recommend calling your CCR&R for your county. It is rule change month so they could have changed last week and have not updated online (mine did ). I do know they have some great grants going for after school programs right now.

Mine says "not more than four consecutive hours per day", so technically it could be before and after, 4 hours each.

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I would only be quoting what I found online. I really recommend calling your CCR&R for your county. It is rule change month so they could have changed last week and have not updated online (mine did ). I do know they have some great grants going for after school programs right now.

Mine says "not more than four consecutive hours per day", so technically it could be before and after, 4 hours each.

Thank you so much for the info. Should I be calling the director, manager, or just the main office?? Should I tell them anything specific?

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thank you so much for the info. Should I be calling the director, manager, or just the main office?? Should I tell them anything specific?

I would contact the Resource & Referral Specialist or Resource Coordinator for your county (scroll through the pdf). Mostly personal preference. I avoid the ones with "excutive" "manager" or "director" in their job title when I need to contact them as I have found them to be more um, abrasive. The specialists and coordinators are the ones who will be working with you and are down to earth.

Also, I just peeked at my update and I see what you are sayng. This is new verbiage here, too. "operate for no more than one session of up to four (4) consecutive hours per day and which limit attendance to no more than eight (8) hours a week per child." It came with a new grouping called "Support Centers" that I have not read yet. I bet many folks will be calling for help, not just you.

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I would contact the Resource & Referral Specialist or Resource Coordinator for your county (scroll through the pdf). Mostly personal preference. I avoid the ones with "excutive" "manager" or "director" in their job title when I need to contact them as I have found them to be more um, abrasive. The specialists and coordinators are the ones who will be working with you and are down to earth.

Also, I just peeked at my update and I see what you are sayng. This is new verbiage here, too. "operate for no more than one session of up to four (4) consecutive hours per day and which limit attendance to no more than eight (8) hours a week per child." I bet many folks will be calling for help, not just you.

Got it. Are you based in California? I can't seem to find any info that says I can operate 4 hours/ day.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Got it. Are you based in California? I can't seem to find any info that says I can operate 4 hours/ day.

I am not, but my state is also a Race to the Top state so our regs tend to flow the same, Federal incentives. My website flows better than yours does, though.

http://ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/License-ExemptChildCare.pdf

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I am not, but my state is also a Race to the Top state so our regs tend to flow the same, Federal incentives. My website flows better than yours does, though.

http://ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/License-ExemptChildCare.pdf

In case anyone was interested, I do need a license. I called the licensing agency, and they were very kind. He said that I was lucky I called instead of being caught. Either way, he said as long as I submit an application, that signifies intent to apply and I can continue operating while the application processes!

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In case anyone was interested, I do need a license. I called the licensing agency, and they were very kind. He said that I was lucky I called instead of being caught. Either way, he said as long as I submit an application, that signifies intent to apply and I can continue operating while the application processes!

Oh that’s good news!! I’m so glad you got it all figured out!

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This was my former daycare person. She was watching way more than the legal amount of children. Cash only, refused to give her SS# and was not paying taxes. We recently fired her and I am debating if I should report her of if I would get hit as well for not claiming what we paid to her the past nine years. Full disclosure, this person has been watching kids from her home for 15 years and not paying taxes. What should I do? Look the other way?

So you let her watch your child/ren for nine years and your thinking of turning her in now?? Turn the other way. It didn't bother you for nine years- why does it bother you now? She cared for, fed, cleaned your child. Her heat and electric bills went up. Wear and tear on her house. Grocery bill higher. Diapers she's changed. Sooooo...I don't want you to think I'm attacking you- but NINE years your just now wanting to report her? What really happened here?

[yellowstreetlamps]

I think is the best preschool in Utah that represents how diligent caregivers are in giving of themselves regardless of how parents perceive things and parents do not always know how many children can and cannot be in a daycare. preschool in Utah has a small number of children so each child gets plenty of attention. As you have learned, it is always best to just contact the provider with any concerns you may have. daycare in UT have the best providers who are always willing to address any concerns you may have.

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by yellowstreetlamps

I think is the best preschool in Utah that represents how diligent caregivers are in giving of themselves regardless of how parents perceive things and parents do not always know how many children can and cannot be in a daycare. preschool in Utah has a small number of children so each child gets plenty of attention. As you have learned, it is always best to just contact the provider with any concerns you may have. daycare in UT have the best providers who are always willing to address any concerns you may have.

Please do not advertise on the forum without first getting permission from the site owner.

[Ac114]

Originally Posted by aminat

A daycare business requires licensing of facilities and people. As a home-based childcare provider, you may be able to watch one or two children without a license but after that, you may have to be a licensed provider.

Actually in my state you can have up to 6 children under the age of 6, no more than 2 being under the age of 2 before needing a license. But rarely do they even look into. Our state is flooded with license exempt providers and many of them being over ratio. ��

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by aminat

A daycare business requires licensing of facilities and people. As a home-based childcare provider, you may be able to watch one or two children without a license but after that, you may have to be a licensed provider.

What state are you in?

I send my 2 kids to a daycare provider who is not licensed. She cares for less than 6 children. I live in Michigan. Can I claim this amt?

[TomCopeland]

Originally Posted by Chris

I send my 2 kids to a daycare provider who is not licensed. She cares for less than 6 children. I live in Michigan. Can I claim this amt?

Yes. You can claim the child care tax credit. You want to get her Social Security number.

Would that mean she HAS to claim the money as well?

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Chris

Would that mean she HAS to claim the money as well?

Legally whether you claim it or not, she is still suppose to claim all income.