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  #1  
Old 02-19-2010, 10:44 PM
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We have recently gotten a new full time 3 yr old. The full time status was just what the owner needed to bring in extra money each week, and his arrival/departure schedule fits in just right for her needs, but there are other things to consider. The owner and myself do not know whether to terminate him already or keep trying for a little while longer. This was his 2nd week there. He pushes the toddlers down, sometimes for no reason, sometimes it's because they have something he wants and he just yanks the item from their hand and pushes them away at the same time. Him and a 4 yr old in particular do NOT get along. The least little thing sets them into a "hands and feet flying fight". I've never seen anything like it for children their age. Another thing is he just will NOT listen when we tell him to come, or go do something, or pick up the toys he threw all over the floor just for the fun of it. Sometimes he'll knock (small plastic) chairs over and scatter them around the room just to do it. Nap time and meals/snacks are a huge hassle, too, just getting him to sit down and stay where he's supposed to be. The other children don't have as much trouble with it as him. Time outs don't affect him, and receives them SO OFTEN. He got at least 4 today (for pushing, fighting, etc), but that's not counting the times he should have gotten one, but we chose to just talk to him and remind him of the rule broken instead, hoping that would be more effective. He can be really sweet too, though, and he's growing on us. The daycare owner has talked to the mom so she's aware of the situation and how he's behaving, and she says she's going to work with us and do anything she can to help the situation, but will it be enough soon enough? His mom is honest and admits that he had a lot of behavior problems in his other daycare too, which was like a year ago. We're thinking about giving it one more week and without a lot of improvement, terminate his care. What do you all think? The extra full time income is really needed by the owner, and like I said, we've seen his sweet and cute side too. But he's taking a LOT of attention away from the other children.
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Old 02-20-2010, 07:30 AM
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I am one that will keep them longer then 2 weeks. At that age he is seeing what he can get away with, with different people. You need to be consistant - if you tell him no & send him to time out then that is what you need to do EVERYTIME not sometimes. Each time he needs to go to time out increase the time. I have had kids spend most of the day in time out for several days untill they got it. If there is something that you know that he really likes use that to your advantage. Try a sticker chart that if he receives so many at the end of the week or month he gets to pick a prize out of a box. Main thing is consistency, I have found that once a child learns what the routine/ schedule is they do much better.
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Old 02-20-2010, 08:02 AM
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I am one that will keep them longer then 2 weeks. At that age he is seeing what he can get away with, with different people. You need to be consistant - if you tell him no & send him to time out then that is what you need to do EVERYTIME not sometimes. Each time he needs to go to time out increase the time. I have had kids spend most of the day in time out for several days untill they got it. If there is something that you know that he really likes use that to your advantage. Try a sticker chart that if he receives so many at the end of the week or month he gets to pick a prize out of a box. Main thing is consistency, I have found that once a child learns what the routine/ schedule is they do much better.
I agree with everything but the making them sit in time out for most of the day. I'm sure a parent would not like it if they knew their child was doing nothing all day but sitting in one spot. I know I wouldn't. After a few mins they won't really know why they are even there any more.

Be consistent with him. One part is the age, another is that he's a boy.

Might should crazy, but I'd look at his diet. Is he eating a lot of dyes in his foods. They might kids hyper. I'd talk to his mom about this too. I've just cut dyes out of my sons diet and it's made a big difference!!
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Old 02-20-2010, 09:38 AM
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I agree with everything but the making them sit in time out for most of the day. I'm sure a parent would not like it if they knew their child was doing nothing all day but sitting in one spot. I know I wouldn't. After a few mins they won't really know why they are even there any more.

Be consistent with him. One part is the age, another is that he's a boy.

Might should crazy, but I'd look at his diet. Is he eating a lot of dyes in his foods. They might kids hyper. I'd talk to his mom about this too. I've just cut dyes out of my sons diet and it's made a big difference!!
I am very open with my parents. I have only needed to do this with 1 family & the parents had problems at home as well. I did not need to do this for long & I always told the parents. This parent also made the comment to me on a few different occasions that their child listened to me more then them. It is because I am consistent & they know there is consequences if they do not follow the rules.
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Old 02-20-2010, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I thought I should add that we are VERY consistent with rules and consequences, etc. but I really don't see how having him in time-out all day is going to help in his case (it works on some children, but not him, it doesn't seem). He doesn't even understand WHY he gets a time-out. He looks so confused when we make him sit down and by the time it's over (and he's jumped up and ran off from his time-out several times) he thinks he got time out because he got up rather than from pushing a 20 month old for example. Also, I mentioned the fights he gets into with a 4 yr old. The two children come out with scratches and marks all over them (and of course we break the fights up as quickly as we possibly can, so they only last a second). And the toddlers go home with bruises, I'm sure, from where he's pushed them down, or knocked them into things.
How much longer do you think we should give him for improvement? At the rate he's going, there's no way it can continue. It just seems to be getting worse every day. One parent already asked which child it was specifically that scratched their 25 mo old (I'm talking a scratch that drew blood). But if there's hope of quick improvement, we really don't want to terminate his care.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:24 AM
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He sounds like someone that needs to be continuously shadowed, which doesn't really work out well in a home care environment. I've encountered this type of behavior at a center before and they hired a student (child care lab) to stay with the child at all time in order to keep him from hurting the other children. The other children were actually afraid of this particular child.
Unless you all are able to afford another person to shadow this child you might suggest mom send him to a center or get him a nanny. His behavior may smooth out, but it may cost you some clients in the meantime.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:19 PM
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I agree that he needs to be shadowed but I don't know about the rest of you (since I only have a 6 child max) but in a DC with 12 kids and two adults do you really have the resources to have one adult monitor the one child while the other watches all 11 other kids??? Even at a lower ratio of 8 kids It doesn't seem fair that one provider watch 7 kids while the other watches 1.

Has the parent considered that there may be something wrong with the child? Like maybe he needs to be evaluated? I thought a nephew of mine was just plain mean and rude because he had trouble comunicating with people but it turned out that he has mild autism. He would hit ANYBODY within reach, terrorize his cousins and destroy everything within reach. Or maybe could be something else altogether like sensory processing problems. Just a thought.
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Last edited by Michael; 02-24-2010 at 03:14 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:27 PM
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I agree that he needs to be shadowed but I don't know about the rest of you (since I only have a 6 child max) but in a DC with 12 kids and two adults do you really have the resources to have one adult monitor the one child while the other watches all 11 other kids??? Even at a lower ratio of 8 kids It doesn't seem fair that one provider watch 7 kids while the other watches 1.

Has the parent considered that there may be something wrong with the child? Like maybe he needs to be evaluated? I thought a nephew of mine was just plain mean and rude because he had trouble comunicating with people but it turned out that he has mild autism. He would hit ANYBODY within reach, terrorize his cousins and destroy everything within reach. Or maybe could be something else altogether like sensory processing problems. Just a thought.
Yeah, we couldn't exactly have one of us shadow him while the other watches the other children (We're licensed for 16, so we average 13-16 each day). But if he were to be shadowed, I'd feel sorry for the one who had to do it. They better wear good running shoes and have a LOT of energy to keep up with him!

I hadn't even thought of that (about if he has something wrong with him). He does seem to behave like a younger child. For example, he knocks over the child-sized chairs all the time just for the fun of it, and he went around today dumping at least 3 of the other children's plates of food upside down while they were still eating, but usually it's just his plate he dumps. He also likes to throw stuff into the other children's cups (like the other day it was his used napkin). When we'd get after him, he'd look at us like he really couldn't understand what he'd done that was wrong. Time outs are useless on him, but we continue to use them because what else can you do with a child in day care? And at nap time, especially, he starts mumbling to himself and I can't tell what he's saying. What else should we look for to see if maybe he is mildly autistic?
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:24 AM
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Well for my nephew he likes to play with wheels alot which the Dr. says is typical in some kids. He flips over cars or trucks or even a stroller to spin the wheels, he also likes to watch movies in fast forward or rewind. You can't understand a lot of what he's saying a lot of the times either and he likes to make noise. A lot of noise. The doc said that kids with autism hava different way of entertaining themselves and most kids have fun doing odd things. My nephew likes to get big blocks and bang on the floor and tables and slam doors over and over again. He can do this for hours. He's also sensitive to touch. Doesn't like to be held. And when he finds something that he's interested in (like my very expensive camera) he just likes to push the button to hear the clicking noise but doesn't actually want to look through the lense or look at the pictures of himself. When I pull it away from him he gets upset and throws himself on the floor and even when he's done crying he'll just lay there and mumble to himself.
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Old 03-03-2010, 05:41 PM
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Thank you for the reply, Marina Vanessa. This little boy is usually easy enough to understand, but he's not a big talker either. He's too busy running, haha. He, also, seems to find amusement in the oddest things. Or at least I'm beginning to think he's just doing it for fun when he randomly knocks the chairs over, pushes or throws the toys off the table, dumps his and the other children's plates upside down, pulls his pants down right in the middle of the room, constantly washes his hands, tips the drinking cups over to spill the contents... Any ideas what a daycare can do if they think they might suspect a mild form of mental retardation? We obviously can't keep sending the other children home with scratches from him and everything else he does to them and not expect the other parents to get upset. But we don't want to suggest to his parents that there might be something wrong with him before we actually know if that's what it is. Imagine what an insult that would be for a daycare provider to tell you something like that about your child? Especially if he's not like that at home.
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Old 03-04-2010, 04:16 AM
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Thank you for the reply, Marina Vanessa. This little boy is usually easy enough to understand, but he's not a big talker either. He's too busy running, haha. He, also, seems to find amusement in the oddest things. Or at least I'm beginning to think he's just doing it for fun when he randomly knocks the chairs over, pushes or throws the toys off the table, dumps his and the other children's plates upside down, pulls his pants down right in the middle of the room, constantly washes his hands, tips the drinking cups over to spill the contents... Any ideas what a daycare can do if they think they might suspect a mild form of mental retardation? We obviously can't keep sending the other children home with scratches from him and everything else he does to them and not expect the other parents to get upset. But we don't want to suggest to his parents that there might be something wrong with him before we actually know if that's what it is. Imagine what an insult that would be for a daycare provider to tell you something like that about your child? Especially if he's not like that at home.
For the bad behavior at the table....he would be sitting alone and eating his lunch for a few days (or placed in a high chair). Then placed back with the group. If he did it again, he would go back to eating alone.

The tipping the chairs over.....he would no longer be allowed to sit in them. He would have to sit on a designated spot on the floor like a carpet square. You abuse the items, you don't get to use them.

Tipping the drinking cups. He would no longer have one. He would have to ask everytime he wanted a drink, and that would be limited. Again, removing him from the situation so he does not have the opportunity to do it.

Pulling his pants down......I would demand that he wear a onesie everday. Yes I know you said he was 3. Not acceptable behavior pulling your pants down.

Pushing and throwing toys.....He would pick them up, and then he would be removed from the group, Placed alone at a small table with a couple items to play with, and that is where he would spend the rest of his day.
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:24 PM
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For the bad behavior at the table....he would be sitting alone and eating his lunch for a few days (or placed in a high chair). Then placed back with the group. If he did it again, he would go back to eating alone.

The tipping the chairs over.....he would no longer be allowed to sit in them. He would have to sit on a designated spot on the floor like a carpet square. You abuse the items, you don't get to use them.

Tipping the drinking cups. He would no longer have one. He would have to ask everytime he wanted a drink, and that would be limited. Again, removing him from the situation so he does not have the opportunity to do it.

Pulling his pants down......I would demand that he wear a onesie everday. Yes I know you said he was 3. Not acceptable behavior pulling your pants down.

Pushing and throwing toys.....He would pick them up, and then he would be removed from the group, Placed alone at a small table with a couple items to play with, and that is where he would spend the rest of his day.
Thanks for the suggestions! Good idea with making him sit alone at a table when he misbehaves during lunch or snack. And Pushing & Throwing toys: We are doing that already (making him pick them up), but so far it hasn't phased him. Thanks for mentioning it, though, because at least I know we're doing the same type of discipline as other daycares. For the others I need to supply a little more information. Tipping the chairs over: he's not actually trying to sit in them. He just walks past, knocks them over, and keeps walking... we make him sit them upright again, but that also does not seem to be doing any good.
Tipping the drinking cups: I'm talking about the other children's cups during lunch or snack. He uses a sippy cup. There's no way we could allow him to have a regular cup inbetween meals or snacks or any of the other children for that matter. Too many accidents happen with that age group
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Old 01-05-2011, 08:56 PM
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Thank you for the reply, Marina Vanessa. This little boy is usually easy enough to understand, but he's not a big talker either. He's too busy running, haha. He, also, seems to find amusement in the oddest things. Or at least I'm beginning to think he's just doing it for fun when he randomly knocks the chairs over, pushes or throws the toys off the table, dumps his and the other children's plates upside down, pulls his pants down right in the middle of the room, constantly washes his hands, tips the drinking cups over to spill the contents... Any ideas what a daycare can do if they think they might suspect a mild form of mental retardation? We obviously can't keep sending the other children home with scratches from him and everything else he does to them and not expect the other parents to get upset. But we don't want to suggest to his parents that there might be something wrong with him before we actually know if that's what it is. Imagine what an insult that would be for a daycare provider to tell you something like that about your child? Especially if he's not like that at home.
I had a very similar situation with a child that started in my daycare at the age of 17 months. I thought this child was very clumsy or his equalibrium was off because he would be walking and fall for no reason at all (even when he was 3 years old). He would fall and get up as if it didn't happen. He was a very quite toddler until 3.5 years old. It was then when I started to notice major "obsessive" behaviors. His tempers were increasing, had particular items he would carry around for days and days. He would repeat phrases over and over. It seemed he never stopped running or talking. He would not "play" with the other children much but played along side the children. There were other behavior issues increasing as well. When this child was 4 yrs old, I had a good friend of mine come visit me from out of town who happens to have a bachelors degree in special education....specializing in autism. She came into my daycare room (my garage is converted to my daycare room) and within a few minutes she said "you never told me you had a special needs child". I looked at her confused. I have never spoken to her about any of the issues (that were rapidly increasing and getting very intolerable) that I have noticed with him...but somehow I knew who she was talking about. I began telling her his history from 17 months old until that time. She went out to her vehicle and brought in a book about asbergers syndrom. I was blown away. Every characteristic (physical & mental)matched him perfectly. I could not ever bring myself to discuss this with his single mom who thought that he was a perfect "can't ever do anything wrong" child. I have had many many discussions with her regarding his behavior issues. Her response was always "hhhhmmm....he never acts like that at home". However, his outrageous behavior was increasing by the day and becoming much more aggressive to me and other dc kids that I was at the point of terminating him from dc...which was tearing me up cuz I really do love this little boy...but I didn't need to terminate him..he never returned after that last discussion I had with his mom. She insisted that I needed to excersize with him and spend more time with him. Being that we are in the daycare room all day and I am only out of the room to prepare meals and snacks and for potty breaks... I could not believe she had the nerve to even think I didn't spend time with him. He took the majority of my attention. We are on a structured routine and my attention is focused on the dck 100% of the time when they are here. I do plenty of activities, reading, playing, music, crafts....a whole varity of things. I really enjoy my job and the kids that I keep. I later found out that from the time he got home until he went to sleep he watched movies in his room by himself...and that his mom and live in boyfriend had been "on again-off again" for several months and had just broke it off for good. (I found this out from her father that I ran into who thought I was aware of that situation-he also informed me that the dck's 4 year old program teacher is setting him up for evaluation for a learning disability) Sooooo.... to make a long story short...go get a book about Aspergers Syndrome...(it is a slight form of autism actually).
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:03 AM
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I'm also going to second that it sounds like he might have some challenges--ADHD, autism, something. Most 3 year olds DO understand why they are being given a time out. That he doesn't is a red flag, IMO.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:16 AM
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Ok, I know this isn't the common thought here, most look for a "label" for the child. However, to me, it sounds like plain ole, "I'm gonna test them to see just how far I can get".

Wait him out. Be VERY FIRM in your tone and attitude with everything. Don't give him an inch. When you even *think* he pushed someone, took a toy etc. sit him in time out. He will at some point get the idea of why he is there. I think he knows now. To me, it sounds like he is playing you.

When he tires of not being able to get away with things, I think you will see a different child.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:48 AM
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If I were in your shoes, I would get with the owner, sit down and talk about the pro's and con's of keeping the kid. You both may find that the best choice would be to boot him and replace him with another kid. It may result in a lower income until he is replaced, but in the long run, it would probably be worth it. Kids like that can really stir up trouble with other kids in care who might not have been any trouble before.

Also, whether he has autism, ADHD, or anything like those, it is not an excuse for him to be able to violate the rights of the other kids in care. I've seen it happen way too many times that a label becomes an excuse for just downright bad behavior.
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