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  #1  
Old 08-05-2018, 09:11 AM
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Default Tricked? Into Taking Special Needs Kiddo

Help! I haven’t been doing this for very long and so I’m not I made a mistake that I’m sure you’ll all shake your heads at but now I don’t know what to do. I had a single parent interview with me and say she was desperate to find care immediately because her family could no longer help out. At the interview she didn’t bring her kiddo with her (2years old) because she was meeting with me on her lunch break. Everything seemed fine during the interview but toward the end she mentioned that the kiddo has a “little trouble with walking “ and she’s hoping that being around others her age will help her get better at it. On her first day here parent arrives and it’s immediately clear to me that this child has severe physical and cognitive delays!!! I have given it my best chance but I’m just not equipped to care for this kiddo and to make matters worse parent is in major denial and says that child’s pediatrician isn’t concerned and so she doesn’t feel she needs to be either. I’d like to just be done with it all but I’m not sure what to say to parent or even how to bring up the subject of letting the kiddo go. The last time I tried I had done a lot of research and gathered names and numbers of all kinds of supportive people and places in our community for her to utilize and she just cried and said she’d look into it but then I never heard a word about it again from her! She did nothing. Also I worry because if I make this woman angry and she leaves on bad terms she’s good friends with another one of the families in my care. What if they leave too??
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Old 08-05-2018, 01:27 PM
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That's one reason why most here have trial periods. A trial period is an open time frame where the provider or the parent can decide it's not the best fit and just move on. A special needs child needs either a nanny, or a provider trained or with experience working with them.

If you don't have a trial period in your agreement, you just have to let the parent know that the child doesn't fit your program well. If you've been watching this child for a little while, could you handle another 2 weeks to give the parent time to find someone else?
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:58 PM
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This is why I don't don't don't don't do interviews without the child. I don't care if you're pregnant, come back when the baby is born. Honestly, if I were you, I'd fill two spots and them term both families. Trust your gut if you think she's going to make trouble with her friends.
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Old 08-05-2018, 03:34 PM
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I agree, kiddo definitely needs something more one on one than I can give. I never even thought of doing something like a trial run with families. I’ve never had a family interview without their kids with them so that should have been a red flag for me. Learning as I go, I guess. ��
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:02 AM
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I would terminate care now BEFORE the mom accepts that her child may have special needs. If she accepts that the child is special needs, it will be much harder to terminate care due to discrimination laws etc.

I would just tell her that you are no longer able to provide care for her child after X date. If you want to give a reason you could just say you are not able to provide the care and attention she needs and leave it at that. You aren't required to expand on your reason. You aren't even required to give a reason at all.
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:57 AM
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I would terminate care now BEFORE the mom accepts that her child may have special needs. If she accepts that the child is special needs, it will be much harder to terminate care due to discrimination laws etc.
This.
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:21 AM
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I would terminate care now BEFORE the mom accepts that her child may have special needs. If she accepts that the child is special needs, it will be much harder to terminate care due to discrimination laws etc.

I would just tell her that you are no longer able to provide care for her child after X date. If you want to give a reason you could just say you are not able to provide the care and attention she needs and leave it at that. You aren't required to expand on your reason. You aren't even required to give a reason at all.
NOW!

I also wouldn't worry about the other family. I have MANY friends/families enrolled and termed several people who referred others. The other party never left care.

Keep it professional "Child is no longer in attendance."

don't get into details. Most likely the other parents are already aware.
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:41 PM
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Default Special needs child

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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
I would terminate care now BEFORE the mom accepts that her child may have special needs. If she accepts that the child is special needs, it will be much harder to terminate care due to discrimination laws etc.

I would just tell her that you are no longer able to provide care for her child after X date. If you want to give a reason you could just say you are not able to provide the care and attention she needs and leave it at that. You aren't required to expand on your reason. You aren't even required to give a reason at all.
Not exactly. The Americans with Disabilities Act says that you must treat a child as having a disability if you have reason to believe that the child has a disability. In other words, the parents can be in denial, but you must still follow the ADA guidelines. That means a provider can't terminate the child in this situation without taking steps to find out what you can do to reasonably accommodate the child. If the parent refuses to let a provider talk to the child's doctor and refuses the provider's request to have the child evaluated out to see what the provider needs to do, then you can tell the parent you can't provide care.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:34 PM
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Ahhh, and now I see where Tom's blog post came from.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:43 AM
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Not exactly. The Americans with Disabilities Act says that you must treat a child as having a disability if you have reason to believe that the child has a disability. In other words, the parents can be in denial, but you must still follow the ADA guidelines. That means a provider can't terminate the child in this situation without taking steps to find out what you can do to reasonably accommodate the child. If the parent refuses to let a provider talk to the child's doctor and refuses the provider's request to have the child evaluated out to see what the provider needs to do, then you can tell the parent you can't provide care.
I guess what I’m more upset about at this point is that I don’t accept infants in my daycare and that when I took her kiddo at the interview I accepted because I knew she was 2:walking, talking, able to sit at a table to eat with a tray and all the other kids. But cognitive-wise she is an infant still. I don’t take infants because I don’t have an assistant and so I don’t have any extra time for that kind of care.
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:44 AM
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I guess what I’m more upset about at this point is that I don’t accept infants in my daycare and that when I took her kiddo at the interview I accepted because I knew she was 2:walking, talking, able to sit at a table to eat with a tray and all the other kids. But cognitive-wise she is an infant still. I don’t take infants because I don’t have an assistant and so I don’t have any extra time for that kind of care.
We were told in a training that it is acceptable to word it something like: “I do not have the staff to meet the child’s needs.”
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:46 AM
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We were told in a training that it is acceptable to word it something like: “I do not have the staff to meet the child’s needs.”
Not enough. You have to find the solution to providing appropriate care for a child with a disability. So, if the experts tell you can provide care with some training and help from the parents/outside resources, you have to provide the care. If the experts tell you that another adult needs to be present to provide the appropriate care, then you need to find out if there are any volunteers who can help. If so, you must provide the care. If not, then you need to find out how much it would cost to hire the extra adult. If the cost is "significant" you don't have to provide the care. What is "significant" is subject to interpretation, but I think that a few hundreds dollars a week would be significant. Then, you can tell the parent that the solution would cost you a significant amount of money and you can't provider the care. Only by going through this process would you be in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Just saying "I don't have the staff" is not enough.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:56 AM
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Not enough. You have to find the solution to providing appropriate care for a child with a disability. So, if the experts tell you can provide care with some training and help from the parents/outside resources, you have to provide the care. If the experts tell you that another adult needs to be present to provide the appropriate care, then you need to find out if there are any volunteers who can help. If so, you must provide the care. If not, then you need to find out how much it would cost to hire the extra adult. If the cost is "significant" you don't have to provide the care. What is "significant" is subject to interpretation, but I think that a few hundreds dollars a week would be significant. Then, you can tell the parent that the solution would cost you a significant amount of money and you can't provider the care. Only by going through this process would you be in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Just saying "I don't have the staff" is not enough.
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t sure if it would hold up, but this actually came up in a food program training a few years ago, and a provider said her licensing rep had given her the info. Sounds like the rep was misinformed and telling providers. Yikes!
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:05 PM
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I was in a training for ADA and I was told that I could not ask during an interview (before they became a client) if their child had a disability ... and if I did that the parent was legally not required to answer. Also that once they became a client I still could not ask them about any disabilities or medical conditions ... that I could only ask if there were any special needs or modifications that their child required (sort of like only being able to ask if a service dog is required because of a disability and what work or task has the dog been trained to perform but not being able to ask specifically what disability the person has).

I was told that I could encourage a family to share medical information with me if they wanted to if I was doing so in order to provide better care for their child but that they could refuse to share the info and I could not specifically use the denial to refuse to sign them up or to terminate care.

LOTS of parents with special needs DON'T share their children's conditions BECAUSE lots of providers refuse to sign them up just because of their condition. In other words, they have no choice ... otherwise, they would be discriminated against.

It reminds me of the daycare providers that don't outright tell their landlords that they will be providing daycare services in the rental home because many landlords outright will deny renting to them only because they do not want to rent to someone doing daycare. They don't notify the landlords until after they have signed the leasing contract so that they won't be discriminated against. (I'm speaking of states like CA where family daycare is a protected class and has special protection like not being able to be denied to run a family childcare home from a rented home/apartment but landlords discriminate anyway. I know in some states there is no protection for FFC providers).

It might "sound shady" but when people are discriminated against they're basically left with no other choice.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:29 PM
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I was in a training for ADA and I was told that I could not ask during an interview (before they became a client) if their child had a disability ... and if I did that the parent was legally not required to answer. Also that once they became a client I still could not ask them about any disabilities or medical conditions ... that I could only ask if there were any special needs or modifications that their child required (sort of like only being able to ask if a service dog is required because of a disability and what work or task has the dog been trained to perform but not being able to ask specifically what disability the person has).

I was told that I could encourage a family to share medical information with me if they wanted to if I was doing so in order to provide better care for their child but that they could refuse to share the info and I could not specifically use the denial to refuse to sign them up or to terminate care.

LOTS of parents with special needs DON'T share their children's conditions BECAUSE lots of providers refuse to sign them up just because of their condition. In other words, they have no choice ... otherwise, they would be discriminated against.

It reminds me of the daycare providers that don't outright tell their landlords that they will be providing daycare services in the rental home because many landlords outright will deny renting to them only because they do not want to rent to someone doing daycare. They don't notify the landlords until after they have signed the leasing contract so that they won't be discriminated against. (I'm speaking of states like CA where family daycare is a protected class and has special protection like not being able to be denied to run a family childcare home from a rented home/apartment but landlords discriminate anyway. I know in some states there is no protection for FFC providers).

It might "sound shady" but when people are discriminated against they're basically left with no other choice.
It DOES sound "shady" because it IS "shady.

I understand what you are saying and the logic in thinking but as a parent (not a provider) I just couldn't imagine lying (even by omission) simply to get my child enrolled somewhere.

It might work in a million other situations but I just wouldn't feel as if my child was receiving truly authentic and genuine care if my provider felt betrayed, lied to or mis-led.

It might not be such a big deal in regards to other legal constraints (ie: not wanting to have a public restroom or something less personal) but I just don't see ANY provider I've ever known (virtually or IRL) that wouldn't act differently towards a parent that "tricked" them in some way....kwim?

I also understand that parents of special needs kids want their children cared for just like every other child but as much as they want that, it doesn't change the fact that their child isn't just like every other child.

My child has/had special needs (I say 'had' only because they aren't a child any longer) and I couldn't imagine my child being cared for in an environment not aware of, not trained or not wanting to deal with my child's unique need.
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Old 08-13-2018, 03:42 PM
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It DOES sound "shady" because it IS "shady.

I understand what you are saying and the logic in thinking but as a parent (not a provider) I just couldn't imagine lying (even by omission) simply to get my child enrolled somewhere.

It might work in a million other situations but I just wouldn't feel as if my child was receiving truly authentic and genuine care if my provider felt betrayed, lied to or mis-led.

It might not be such a big deal in regards to other legal constraints (ie: not wanting to have a public restroom or something less personal) but I just don't see ANY provider I've ever known (virtually or IRL) that wouldn't act differently towards a parent that "tricked" them in some way....kwim?

I also understand that parents of special needs kids want their children cared for just like every other child but as much as they want that, it doesn't change the fact that their child isn't just like every other child.

My child has/had special needs (I say 'had' only because they aren't a child any longer) and I couldn't imagine my child being cared for in an environment not aware of, not trained or not wanting to deal with my child's unique need.
See, I would want to know upfront, because I have my own partial disability & it could affect the care I give especially since my home cannot be retro-fitted for special equipment due to space issues alone... I'm looking at selling because I can't find a way to make my home ADA for myself much less a special needs baby. And with so few kids & the small space, paying someone is not an option even if it's only $100 week as I only gross 450 right now. I'm not making ends meet because I still have an open position too, but 2 adults in this small home with kids... wouldn't work. My home was bought to exact footage for 4 babies under 24 months and my bedroom (which is off limits) once toys & furniture was placed
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:19 PM
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It DOES sound "shady" because it IS "shady.

I understand what you are saying and the logic in thinking but as a parent (not a provider) I just couldn't imagine lying (even by omission) simply to get my child enrolled somewhere.

It might work in a million other situations but I just wouldn't feel as if my child was receiving truly authentic and genuine care if my provider felt betrayed, lied to or mis-led.

It might not be such a big deal in regards to other legal constraints (ie: not wanting to have a public restroom or something less personal) but I just don't see ANY provider I've ever known (virtually or IRL) that wouldn't act differently towards a parent that "tricked" them in some way....kwim?

I also understand that parents of special needs kids want their children cared for just like every other child but as much as they want that, it doesn't change the fact that their child isn't just like every other child.

My child has/had special needs (I say 'had' only because they aren't a child any longer) and I couldn't imagine my child being cared for in an environment not aware of, not trained or not wanting to deal with my child's unique need.
I guess I'm just saying that I understand why parents don't alert providers about this just like I understand why providers don't alert potential landlords in CA that they do daycare ... because 9 out of 10 times they will be rejected just for that one reason.

And I'm not even talking about the people that lie about it, I'm talking about the people that don't divulge the information until after they have been accepted for fear of being dismissed outright without even a chance.
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:24 PM
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Not enough. You have to find the solution to providing appropriate care for a child with a disability. So, if the experts tell you can provide care with some training and help from the parents/outside resources, you have to provide the care. If the experts tell you that another adult needs to be present to provide the appropriate care, then you need to find out if there are any volunteers who can help. If so, you must provide the care. If not, then you need to find out how much it would cost to hire the extra adult. If the cost is "significant" you don't have to provide the care. What is "significant" is subject to interpretation, but I think that a few hundreds dollars a week would be significant. Then, you can tell the parent that the solution would cost you a significant amount of money and you can't provider the care. Only by going through this process would you be in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Just saying "I don't have the staff" is not enough.
I'm very curious.
Does a trial period give a provider a way out? Contract says: "2 week trial period, during which, the parent or provider can cancel at any time"
Would ADA say that's not allowed?

Doesn't matter to me since I'm in Canada and even considering going the route of special needs care, but I'm sure many US providers would be curious about that.
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:15 PM
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I'm very curious.
Does a trial period give a provider a way out? Contract says: "2 week trial period, during which, the parent or provider can cancel at any time"
Would ADA say that's not allowed?

Doesn't matter to me since I'm in Canada and even considering going the route of special needs care, but I'm sure many US providers would be curious about that.
I’m not sure...

@Tom~ how should providers handle lying or with holding parents and what are the legal options?
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Old 08-13-2018, 06:49 PM
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I'm very curious.
Does a trial period give a provider a way out? Contract says: "2 week trial period, during which, the parent or provider can cancel at any time"
Would ADA say that's not allowed?

Doesn't matter to me since I'm in Canada and even considering going the route of special needs care, but I'm sure many US providers would be curious about that.
Looks like Tom recently wrote an article that covered this and some of the other things that were touched on in this thread. Probably because of this thread.


When Can You Terminate a Child With a Disability?

Can a family child care provider terminate a child if she learns about the child’s disability after the child is enrolled?

Let’s say you interview a parent who doesn’t tell you that her daughter has significant difficulty walking as well as major cognitive learning delays. You learn about this when the child shows up for her first day.

When you talk to the parent about the child’s condition, the parent is in denial. “My child doesn’t have a disability. She just needs to be around other children to improve.”

Americans with Disabilities Act

All family child care providers must comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act. This Act says you cannot discriminate against children with disabilities. It doesn’t mean that you have to care for all children who have a disability.

Instead, you must do what is reasonable to accommodate a child with a disability. A disability is a physical or mental impairment that limits one or more major life activities: learning, walking, talking, seeing, or hearing.

Now What?

At this point you cannot terminate the child, even if you believe you are not capable of caring for her. You cannot terminate even during a two-week trial period that you and the parent agreed to, allowing either party to terminate at the end of the day.

The ADA law says you must treat the child as having a disability if you have reason to believe the child is disabled. In this case, it’s obvious to you that the child does have a disability. So, the fact that the mother says her child does not have a disability doesn’t mean you can terminate her without following the ADA guidelines.

When you believe a child has a disability, you must find out what it would take to provide appropriate care for the child. If what it would take to do this will create a significant difficulty or expense, you don’t have to provide care and you can terminate the child.

Therefore, ask the parent to speak with the child’s doctor to find out what she needs. Or, ask the parent for permission to speak with a local nurse or school that could evaluate the child and give you advice.

If you receive professional advice that says you can provide care by following certain procedures with the child that don’t create a significant difficulty or expense, then you must continue to provide care. But, for example, if you are told you must hire someone that will cost $400 a week to assist you, that’s a significant expense. In that case, you can tell the mother that you can’t afford it and you should terminate. If the mother offers to pay the $400, you must continue to provide care.

If the mother does not give you permission to talk to anyone about her child, then you can terminate care if you believe that the child could not receive the appropriate care she deserves while in your program.

Before and After Enrollment

Before you enroll a child, you cannot ask questions of a parent about any disabilities a child may have. After you enroll the child you can ask, “Does your child have any condition(s) that I should be aware or any special measures I need to take for your child?” Then you can ask for help and explore what the child needs.

The vast majority of family child care providers who care for children with mild disabilities do so without much trouble. If you need help in dealing with more severe disabilities, contact your local Child Care Resource and Referral Agency for help.

Tom Copeland – http://tomcopelandblog.com/when-can-...h-a-disability


littlefriends the suggestion of contacting your local child care and resource and referral agency is a good one. Maybe they can give you a contact of another family child care provider who has been in a similar situation that can give you recommendations.

Maybe asking the mom for a note from the child's pediatrician (not a nurse) saying that the child does not require any special accommodations??? (in case the mom is just saying that she's been to a DR and really has not). Sounds like if she's unwilling to cooperate or is in denial then youcan use that as your out??
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:43 PM
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If the cost is "significant" you don't have to provide the care. What is "significant" is subject to interpretation, but I think that a few hundreds dollars a week would be significant. Then, you can tell the parent that the solution would cost you a significant amount of money and you can't provider the care.
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If what it would take to do this will create a significant difficulty or expense, you don’t have to provide care and you can terminate the child
Significant ???
I don't even do daycare yet and I know it's not a high income business. Many of you care for several children just to make a decent income. If $100/week wasn't considered significant, that's $430/month lost which is a good chunk of money. What if you have 6 children and 3 of them each cost $80/m? That's just over $1000/m and that would shut down any home daycares.

I think it's nice that ADA wants to protect the children, and many of you know me enough to know that I really mean that, but a business is for one purpose, to make money to live off of. I think that in any business, if a client was going to cost you money, it should be your choice if you want that client and/or want to charge them extra to cover the cost. That's not the case though, in other businesses as well. Many legitimate businesses have actually failed due to government regulations.

The problem is, there are 2 ways to look at it.

From the business side, main priority is to make money, so regulations that force a business to do something that could even make them lose money are just plain dumb.

From the other side, if the regulations didn't exist, a lot of people would never be able to get services, or even products, they need.

Just one of the many negatives of self-employment, and why not everyone can do it. Running a business is very intense work, and not the same as a simple 9-5 job. Many businesses don't even make minumum wage.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:00 PM
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Significant ???
I don't even do daycare yet and I know it's not a high income business. Many of you care for several children just to make a decent income. If $100/week wasn't considered significant, that's $430/month lost which is a good chunk of money. What if you have 6 children and 3 of them each cost $80/m? That's just over $1000/m and that would shut down any home daycares.
I believe that it depends on each provider's circumstance. For example, if a provider had 6 children and was charging $200/week and making $1,200 a week total/$4800 a month then $400 a month would not be considered excessive. If however a provider only had 4 clients and only charged $100/week so made only $400 a week total/$1600 a month then $400 a month would be considered excessive.

Another example is my case ... I had a family contact me for services and their 3-year-old used a wheelchair. The only restroom that is downstairs is not wide enough for a wheelchair to go through and I would have had to spend thousands of dollars to widen the doorway for her wheelchair to fit through. That would be an excessive amount to pay and I could not afford that. The parents reached out to their doctor and got a MUCH smaller wheelchair (tiny actually) and then there was no issue for me.

So it seems as it would all be based on a case by case basis and whether other alternatives are options.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:52 AM
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Okay so what if this mom is also consistently late picking up? Several times a week she will be 5-15, 20 min after my closing time and give no explanation or even say she’s sorry and a few times has gotten stuck at work and “forgotten” to let me know. Those nights were 30-40 min after I closed. What if I terminated on those grounds, never even mentioning anything to do with disability?
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:53 AM
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Okay so what if this mom is also consistently late picking up? Several times a week she will be 5-15, 20 min after my closing time and give no explanation or even say she’s sorry and a few times has gotten stuck at work and “forgotten” to let me know. Those nights were 30-40 min after I closed. What if I terminated on those grounds, never even mentioning anything to do with disability?
What does your contract say about late pickups?
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:04 AM
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“Provider reserves the right to terminate care without notice in the event that behavior problems occur and are not being addressed in a timely manner, payments are not being made when due, or providers business hours are not being respected.”
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:11 AM
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“Provider reserves the right to terminate care without notice in the event that behavior problems occur and are not being addressed in a timely manner, payments are not being made when due, or providers business hours are not being respected.”
I’d think that would have you covered, but you may want to add more specifics for any new families coming in. Have you addressed the issue with dcm yet? Hopefully you’ve documented the late pickups....I’d send a term letter, stating the late pickups as the reason.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:47 AM
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Okay so what if this mom is also consistently late picking up? Several times a week she will be 5-15, 20 min after my closing time and give no explanation or even say she’s sorry and a few times has gotten stuck at work and “forgotten” to let me know. Those nights were 30-40 min after I closed. What if I terminated on those grounds, never even mentioning anything to do with disability?
Providers often terminate care for being late, I think this could be an out for you. Address it in writing, have the parent sign in acknowledgment that their child needs to be picked up and out of your home no later than their scheduled pickup time and (if in your contract) charge her late pickup fees when they apply. Each time she's late, put it in writing and charge the late fee.

Do you do sign-in sheets? Maybe it's time you did if not. And when she walks in YOU write in the time she walked in and have her sign out. This way you have the time and her signature as proof.

I know that being late 30-40 mins without arranging it with me first id definitely ground for termination if I have already talked to her before.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:04 PM
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I believe that it depends on each provider's circumstance. For example, if a provider had 6 children and was charging $200/week and making $1,200 a week total/$4800 a month then $400 a month would not be considered excessive. If however a provider only had 4 clients and only charged $100/week so made only $400 a week total/$1600 a month then $400 a month would be considered excessive.

Another example is my case ... I had a family contact me for services and their 3-year-old used a wheelchair. The only restroom that is downstairs is not wide enough for a wheelchair to go through and I would have had to spend thousands of dollars to widen the doorway for her wheelchair to fit through. That would be an excessive amount to pay and I could not afford that. The parents reached out to their doctor and got a MUCH smaller wheelchair (tiny actually) and then there was no issue for me.

So it seems as it would all be based on a case by case basis and whether other alternatives are options.
The $400 might be significant though for that provider as that money maybe earmarked for something else already.

We have bills like anyone else so to add something on top of us that we are maybe not able to afford-even if it seems small might cause us financial hardships.

The other option would be to raise rates to cover something like this.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:09 PM
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The $400 might be significant though for that provider as that money maybe earmarked for something else already.

We have bills like anyone else so to add something on top of us that we are maybe not able to afford-even if it seems small might cause us financial hardships.

The other option would be to raise rates to cover something like this.
Yes very true. If her income all went towards living expenses then it would also be considered excessive, which is why I mentioned it's on a case by case basis.

Like for me even if I was making the higher amount (and I do charge $200/mo) paying $400 a month would be hard. That's my car payment.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:13 PM
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I would absolutely terminate for being late. It is in your contract, hopefully you have some sort of proof and boom she is gone!

I would not trust anyone who did not bring their child for an interview. She came during her lunch break so she could avoid you seeing her child. What kind of mother does that or puts their child where they are not wanted or able to be taken care of effectively. If she has issues finding care she needs to go to the government for assistance. My nephew was diagnosed with cerebral palsy and my brother gets money to pay for a live out nanny. His needs are too great for a home daycare with one person.

I had a woman show up to an interview without her children and I never contacted her after that. Huge red flag and she mentioned in passing her child was a preemie with a breathing issue...it all made sense why she came without her kids.
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:03 PM
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I would absolutely terminate for being late. It is in your contract, hopefully you have some sort of proof and boom she is gone!

I would not trust anyone who did not bring their child for an interview. She came during her lunch break so she could avoid you seeing her child. What kind of mother does that or puts their child where they are not wanted or able to be taken care of effectively. If she has issues finding care she needs to go to the government for assistance. My nephew was diagnosed with cerebral palsy and my brother gets money to pay for a live out nanny. His needs are too great for a home daycare with one person.

I had a woman show up to an interview without her children and I never contacted her after that. Huge red flag and she mentioned in passing her child was a preemie with a breathing issue...it all made sense why she came without her kids.
I totally get that; unless they are still pregnant, I refuse to interview sans child... even then, I want to meet a newborn before care starts and my policy states that if you know at birth there are issues, I must have DR letter explaining how issue is being dealt with. Parent refuses to give DR info, I refuse care... I will not take a child on that I don't know how to care for - they can complain all they want, but unless it's in writing, I may never have agreed to take said child
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Old 08-15-2018, 07:51 AM
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My child has/had special needs (I say 'had' only because they aren't a child any longer) and I couldn't imagine my child being cared for in an environment not aware of, not trained or not wanting to deal with my child's unique need.
Exactly! My brother was autistic (mild form that he grew out of in adulthood) and my mom sent him to a "special" preschool because she knew he would get the care he needed and the curriculum and staff were designed for children with special needs. He wouldnt have thrived in a "regular" daycare. If my child was special needs, they would be going to a facility that met and specialized in his needs.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:54 AM
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Okay so what if this mom is also consistently late picking up? Several times a week she will be 5-15, 20 min after my closing time and give no explanation or even say she’s sorry and a few times has gotten stuck at work and “forgotten” to let me know. Those nights were 30-40 min after I closed. What if I terminated on those grounds, never even mentioning anything to do with disability?
If you are consistently enforcing your late pick up, by terminating other families who are constantly late, then by terminating a family whose child has a disability for being consistently late is not illegal discrimination because it has nothing to do with the disability. If you don't terminate other families who are consistently late, then to do so only for a family with a disability would be illegal discrimination.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:01 PM
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If you are consistently enforcing your late pick up, by terminating other families who are constantly late, then by terminating a family whose child has a disability for being consistently late is not illegal discrimination because it has nothing to do with the disability. If you don't terminate other families who are consistently late, then to do so only for a family with a disability would be illegal discrimination.


And this is a great reason to enforce our all of our policies from the get-go. So often, the triggering reason we want to terminate a family is just part of a whole host of other issues that we should already have terminated for. If this were a parent who had her act together, she wouldn't have brought her child, who needs more specialized care, to you in the first place.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:58 PM
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If this were a parent who had her act together, she wouldn't have brought her child, who needs more specialized care, to you in the first place.
Sometimes, but not always true. I had no choice but to keep my DD in "regular" childcare because I could not afford specialized childcare. I couldn't even get her in for a proper evaluation because I made too much to qualify for government medical services but I also didn't make enough money to afford everything she needed. Having a child with special needs is difficult on everyone all around.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:53 PM
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Sometimes, but not always true. I had no choice but to keep my DD in "regular" childcare because I could not afford specialized childcare. I couldn't even get her in for a proper evaluation because I made too much to qualify for government medical services but I also didn't make enough money to afford everything she needed. Having a child with special needs is difficult on everyone all around.
I raised 4 children with special needs... mostly as a single mom; there are options in certain states when you don't qualify for medical help. I also didn't treat my kids differently & they all grew up to be fine adults despite their limitations - in fact, all make more $$ than me each month, so I did something right lol (all were homeschooled for at least a few years... the youngest most of her life)
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:56 PM
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Sometimes, but not always true. I had no choice but to keep my DD in "regular" childcare because I could not afford specialized childcare. I couldn't even get her in for a proper evaluation because I made too much to qualify for government medical services but I also didn't make enough money to afford everything she needed. Having a child with special needs is difficult on everyone all around.
If they are under 3 they qualify for an evaluation with early intervention regardless of financial status. Some therapy organizations base their services on income, others do not. Easter Seals and the Elks give free early intervention and occupational therapy to any child that needs it. The problem....the resources aren’t generally known.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:39 PM
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If they are under 3 they qualify for an evaluation with early intervention regardless of financial status. Some therapy organizations base their services on income, others do not. Easter Seals and the Elks give free early intervention and occupational therapy to any child that needs it. The problem....the resources aren’t generally known.
They wouldn't do an evaluation on her that young because she had ADHD and they said it could just be behavioral and to wait it out. When she was 4 I got her into Head Start where they referred her to the school phsycologist (it was on public school grounds so I was able to take advantage of the school district's resources) and was told the same thing ... that it was behavior. With the help of the teacher, we were able to at least get a behavioral therapist assigned to her during class. When she turned 5 I got another assessment done (independent) and that's when she got her diagnosis (ADHD, anxiety, depression, OCD, ODD).
ADHD isn't taken as seriously as someone who has a physical or other disability so it has been an uphill battle for us. There are lots of options and services available to kids with disabilities/special needs, if you have the right diagnosis.

In any case we've struggled but grew and she's 13 now, still in therapies but at least not on medication anymore. And she hasn't tried to kill me in 3 years so that's a plus
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:50 PM
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They wouldn't do an evaluation on her that young because she had ADHD and they said it could just be behavioral and to wait it out. When she was 4 I got her into Head Start where they referred her to the school phsycologist (it was on public school grounds so I was able to take advantage of the school district's resources) and was told the same thing ... that it was behavior. With the help of the teacher, we were able to at least get a behavioral therapist assigned to her during class. When she turned 5 I got another assessment done (independent) and that's when she got her diagnosis (ADHD, anxiety, depression, OCD, ODD).
ADHD isn't taken as seriously as someone who has a physical or other disability so it has been an uphill battle for us. There are lots of options and services available to kids with disabilities/special needs, if you have the right diagnosis.

In any case we've struggled but grew and she's 13 now, still in therapies but at least not on medication anymore. And she hasn't tried to kill me in 3 years so that's a plus
Unfortunately, once they are 3 and the school district has to take over, you have to practically have a law degree to wade through the BS. I lucked out. I had a daycare dad who was a school psychologist at another district. He taught me the rules, and wrote the first letter for me. I still had an uphill fight.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:28 PM
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Unfortunately, once they are 3 and the school district has to take over, you have to practically have a law degree to wade through the BS. I lucked out. I had a daycare dad who was a school psychologist at another district. He taught me the rules, and wrote the first letter for me. I still had an uphill fight.
Yep we're still going through the battle, but at least we know what to do now. We haven't been able to get anything better than a 504 plan for her, even recently, and even though the most recent evaluation shows she has a learning disability in science and math. Always uphill
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:40 PM
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I would absolutely terminate for being late. It is in your contract, hopefully you have some sort of proof and boom she is gone!

I would not trust anyone who did not bring their child for an interview. She came during her lunch break so she could avoid you seeing her child. What kind of mother does that or puts their child where they are not wanted or able to be taken care of effectively. If she has issues finding care she needs to go to the government for assistance. My nephew was diagnosed with cerebral palsy and my brother gets money to pay for a live out nanny. His needs are too great for a home daycare with one person.

I had a woman show up to an interview without her children and I never contacted her after that. Huge red flag and she mentioned in passing her child was a preemie with a breathing issue...it all made sense why she came without her kids.
This!!! Exactly how I feel. I just don’t get how she could do that; I would want to be absolutely sure that the person I chose to leave my kids with were 100% on board! How can you be sure if you’re not being honest?
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:47 PM
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If they are under 3 they qualify for an evaluation with early intervention regardless of financial status. Some therapy organizations base their services on income, others do not. Easter Seals and the Elks give free early intervention and occupational therapy to any child that needs it. The problem....the resources aren’t generally known.
I did get her in contact with our state’s early intervention program and once evaluated they want kiddo to meet with 4 different specialists. Mom told me that she thinks that’s just too much so she’s going to tell them she only wants one....
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:56 PM
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If you are consistently enforcing your late pick up, by terminating other families who are constantly late, then by terminating a family whose child has a disability for being consistently late is not illegal discrimination because it has nothing to do with the disability. If you don't terminate other families who are consistently late, then to do so only for a family with a disability would be illegal discrimination.
I haven’t been doing this long enough to have had to terminate anyone yet. I’ve had wonderful families so far, luckily. I have been giving her late pick up fee notices and I’ve been writing down times on my calendar. She tries to be sneaky and write what she wants on my sign in/out sheets.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:15 PM
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I haven’t been doing this long enough to have had to terminate anyone yet. I’ve had wonderful families so far, luckily. I have been giving her late pick up fee notices and I’ve been writing down times on my calendar. She tries to be sneaky and write what she wants on my sign in/out sheets.
Darlin' it's time to have a digital clock by the sign out sheet; My clock says you are late, regardless what you want to put & My sheet is right at the front door in my living room; no parent goes in or out without me knowing the time. I even found a way to get a sign in/out online... a parent can't change times on that software lol
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:09 PM
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Tom, would the OP be in the clear if they tried to get this client to drop out by charging every family by the minute for late pick ups? And refusing to accept drop offs if there are outstanding late fees?

If they have had no other families with consistently late pick ups, would they be in the clear to terminate care on the spot with the next late pick up? Or just send a notice of termination right now?

When I make policy changes based on lessons learned from one challenging family, I apply them to all the families . . . none of whom really mind, since they were more or less in line all along.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:14 AM
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I haven’t been doing this long enough to have had to terminate anyone yet. I’ve had wonderful families so far, luckily. I have been giving her late pick up fee notices and I’ve been writing down times on my calendar. She tries to be sneaky and write what she wants on my sign in/out sheets.
You need to terminate asap. If her child hasn't been diagnosed as special needs and she isn't following your rules or respecting you she needs to go! I would give her a warning that if she is late again you have to let her go. Get it in writing with her signature. Once she is late again, let her go.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:44 AM
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Darlin' it's time to have a digital clock by the sign out sheet; My clock says you are late, regardless what you want to put & My sheet is right at the front door in my living room; no parent goes in or out without me knowing the time. I even found a way to get a sign in/out online... a parent can't change times on that software lol
Ugh I feel like a doofus sometimes, lol, I read things on here and want to kick myself for not knowing this or that! I am fishing out an extra digital clock as I write this, Thank you!!
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:56 AM
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Ugh I feel like a doofus sometimes, lol, I read things on here and want to kick myself for not knowing this or that! I am fishing out an extra digital clock as I write this, Thank you!!
Don't feel bad... it took a few years for me to get the idea thru my head; now it's just normal
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:21 AM
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This may seem like a simple, or stupid question......but what if the child has significant issues and you are just plain scared of caring for them? Do you HAVE to care for a child even if it makes you a nervous wreck to do so? I know these laws are there for a reason, I'm just kind of confused I guess. If a provider is nervous of taking care of a special needs child, but you can't discriminate, do you just have no choice?
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:11 PM
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Ugh I feel like a doofus sometimes, lol, I read things on here and want to kick myself for not knowing this or that! I am fishing out an extra digital clock as I write this, Thank you!!
Other ways to handle late pick ups is to switch the pen to a different ink color the moment they are late or highlight the sign out box the moment they are late. Both of these ways will get their attention as the try to write down the wrong time.
I dealt with a family that would put the same time every day (example pick up for them was by 5, every day they wrote 5 even when they arrived at 455 or 450......) So when they came late and the box was highlghted, they stopped and looked at the clock.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:12 PM
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Other ways to handle late pick ups is to switch the pen to a different ink color the moment they are late or highlight the sign out box the moment they are late. Both of these ways will get their attention as the try to write down the wrong time.
I dealt with a family that would put the same time every day (example pick up for them was by 5, every day they wrote 5 even when they arrived at 455 or 450......) So when they came late and the box was highlghted, they stopped and looked at the clock.
Yep, I switch pens too... it really makes them stop in their tracks the first time they try to lie about being late
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:50 PM
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Other ways to handle late pick ups is to switch the pen to a different ink color the moment they are late or highlight the sign out box the moment they are late. Both of these ways will get their attention as the try to write down the wrong time.
I dealt with a family that would put the same time every day (example pick up for them was by 5, every day they wrote 5 even when they arrived at 455 or 450......) So when they came late and the box was highlghted, they stopped and looked at the clock.
I use a highlighter..... at pick up time exactly I highlight the line in bright yellow..... so they sign knowing that we both know they are late.

I also use a highlighter when they forget to sign in.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:41 PM
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Other ways to handle late pick ups is to switch the pen to a different ink color the moment they are late or highlight the sign out box the moment they are late. Both of these ways will get their attention as the try to write down the wrong time.
I dealt with a family that would put the same time every day (example pick up for them was by 5, every day they wrote 5 even when they arrived at 455 or 450......) So when they came late and the box was highlghted, they stopped and looked at the clock.
I change sign out sheets.

Once their pick up time arrives and I see they are late, I take the clipboard with the regular sign in/out sheet and replace it with the "late" sign in/out which is printed in red,.
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
I change sign out sheets.

Once their pick up time arrives and I see they are late, I take the clipboard with the regular sign in/out sheet and replace it with the "late" sign in/out which is printed in red,.
OOOOOH stealing
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  #55  
Old 08-16-2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
OOOOOH stealing
Yep... because changing pens doesn't always work
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:07 AM
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Yep... because changing pens doesn't always work
Yep, cause I have a current family that uses their own pen. I can tell when they do because it a different color than I have available. But both parents keep a pen in the pocket because of the jobs.
I prefer the highlight because of this and the way my sign in sheet is set up it wouldn't work to switch it out with out changing the format.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:44 AM
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This may seem like a simple, or stupid question......but what if the child has significant issues and you are just plain scared of caring for them? Do you HAVE to care for a child even if it makes you a nervous wreck to do so? I know these laws are there for a reason, I'm just kind of confused I guess. If a provider is nervous of taking care of a special needs child, but you can't discriminate, do you just have no choice?
I’m wondering this as well. It sounds like that’s the case...
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:46 AM
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Yep, cause I have a current family that uses their own pen. I can tell when they do because it a different color than I have available. But both parents keep a pen in the pocket because of the jobs.
I prefer the highlight because of this and the way my sign in sheet is set up it wouldn't work to switch it out with out changing the format.
Yes, I couldn’t switch out sheets easily but using highlighter would help. Do you use different colors for different things, like yellow for forgetting to sign and pink for late? Or just yellow for everything?
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
OOOOOH stealing
This is my late pick up sheet.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8_...ew?usp=sharing


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Originally Posted by littlefriends View Post
Yes, I couldn’t switch out sheets easily but using highlighter would help. Do you use different colors for different things, like yellow for forgetting to sign and pink for late? Or just yellow for everything?
You can use yellow high lighter to highlight the box they are suppose to enter their times into.
As for time accuracy, I tell parents to go by their cell phone clocks....everyone's is the same time ...and parents are rarely without their phones.

I don't indicate in anyway someone forgetting to sign in/out. I just remind them at pick up they forgot to sign in and tell them "Hey, Cheryl, you forgot to sign Billy into daycare this morning. You arrived at 8:15 so can you enter the times now please? Thank you!"

I know a provider that does all the time entering herself and then just hands the clip board to the parent to sign.
That way the provider is the one looking at the actual time.
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  #60  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CityGarden View Post
I use a highlighter..... at pick up time exactly I highlight the line in bright yellow..... so they sign knowing that we both know they are late.

I also use a highlighter when they forget to sign in.
I use a highlighter also. As soon as their pick-up time passes I highlight the space for the day's signature.

I use separate monthly sign-in sheets for each child so this works better for me.

Also I have a keyless entry system and each parent gets their own code that only works during their scheduled daycare hours so if they are 1 minute late they're locked out and have to knock, plus I have nest so they get video recorded walking up and their photo taken when they ring the doorbell. If I forget to highlight their line I'm reminded when they have to knock and I make sure to do that before I answer the door. Good luck trying to argue with me about whether they were late or not .
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  #61  
Old 08-17-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MarinaVanessa View Post
I use a highlighter also. As soon as their pick-up time passes I highlight the space for the day's signature.

I use separate monthly sign-in sheets for each child so this works better for me.

Also I have a keyless entry system and each parent gets their own code that only works during their scheduled daycare hours so if they are 1 minute late they're locked out and have to knock, plus I have nest so they get video recorded walking up and their photo taken when they ring the doorbell. If I forget to highlight their line I'm reminded when they have to knock and I make sure to do that before I answer the door. Good luck trying to argue with me about whether they were late or not .
I know... I love my ring doorbell because it sets off the motion sensor even if they don't ring the bell; I can watch them come to the door lol. Not easy to deny a video that can be saved for 30 days
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:54 PM
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Yep... because changing pens doesn't always work
Yep!! Ain't nobody going to get an extra 5 minutes over on me!!! I am a pto
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