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Old 05-16-2019, 01:42 AM
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Pestle Pestle is offline
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Default Aggressive Screaming, Panicked Pestering

Experiences with older preschoolers who use screaming as a weapon? Not frightened or sad screaming. Full-bodied maximum-volume leaning-toward-us ground-shaking roaring.

Experiences with older preschoolers who go nonverbal when upset? Even when the screaming isn't in play, it's grunts and thrashing around.

Ever have a child this age (going on 4) who compulsively takes toys, swats activities from other kids, seems panicked while doing it? Fixed grin and jerky movements, moaning and hiding face from me.

Behavior escalated at the same time this child finally started to put two and two together that negative behavior results in negative consequences. Child will roar when I put the consequence into place and also will roar immediately following the negative behavior, before the consequence takes place. I guess I should take it as a positive sign they know the consequence is coming.

Redirection has worked a couple of times in the last few days but not at all before then, so maybe we're turning a corner. Child is extremely persistent and will scream up to an hour. Child lunged at sibling today and I held child back while rocking them and saying in a soothing voice, "Nobody gets hurt here. You are safe here. I will not let you get hurt. I will not let you hurt your sister," and child screamed "But I want to!" while clawing at the air in the direction of the sibling. That's the second time the child has verbally announced an intention to hurt another child. They also mock and taunt the other children during structured activities. They interrupt during story time, jump up and run away during meal time, can't seem to focus any more on tray activities or other age-appropriate projects.

Child is getting excluded from activities multiple times a day for aggression/disruption but roars and thrashes around the room they're excluded to and hunts for objects in the room to throw over the gate at us. Child has been known to roar for up to an hour and can't be coaxed to transition to a new activity when they're fixated on the thing they've been denied (a toy they threw, usually).

Child eats well and sleeps extremely heavily here along with a full night at home--so, going on 13-15 hours per day. I was waking them at 2 hours but the last couple of weeks have been bad on the behavior end, child won't rouse for me, and apparently child isn't sleeping well at home just now. So child is napping up to 3 hours a day at an age where they typically stop napping entirely.

Child was sent home for behavior this week, where they prevented parent from getting work done. I've suggested family therapy for anxiety. I didn't mention depression or ADHD because it's not my role to diagnose. Fatigue, desire to make the other children unhappy, an inability to focus, guilt that turns into rage in a split second, backsliding on potty training, extreme clinginess to parent, prolonged full-body tantrums. It's all on the cusp of typical-but-undesirable behavior but, at this extreme and all together, it's adding up to something I think I'm not equipped to manage.
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:26 AM
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I'd hand it back to the parents. Continually harming other children would be the end. I am responsible for the entire group and it sounds like the days must be miserable for each and every other child. This does not sound sudden or temporary to me. Sacrificing the happiness and safety of the group for one is simply not a good choice for anyone.

Fixing this is his parents' job.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:44 AM
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My Spidey senses say this is a child lacking coping skills.

Coping skills are honed by following rules and limitations set by the PARENT on a regular basis. Also understanding and complying with the word "No."

I agree with Cat Herder.

Give this issue back to the parent.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:22 PM
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Thanks for the advice! How would you turn it back to the parent? For instance, I woke the child up after 3 hours, and when they saw that all the navy blue cups were in the sink and they had yellow instead, they collapsed on the floor and have been whining, shrieking, and half-heartedly whacking toys around the other room ever since. Haven't changed out of their pull-up; haven't come in for a snack. I've pulled the snack table out of their view so they'll leave the other kids alone. Trying to engage in sympathetic conversation only elicits roaring. Time for a text message? Something like this?

"Hey! Li'l Bubba is up from their nap. Unfortunately, they are too sad to join us for the snack and have been screaming for a while. Since this is making snack time sad for everybody else, they're going to need to head home early today."

The bummer is they're shouting "Mama! Mama? Ma-MA!" over and over, so pick up is going to be a reward. I've spoken to the parent about making sure that the day is SUPER-BORING and NO FUN if they have to be picked up, but that's not how I think it went the other day I texted for pickup.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
Thanks for the advice! How would you turn it back to the parent? For instance, I woke the child up after 3 hours, and when they saw that all the navy blue cups were in the sink and they had yellow instead, they collapsed on the floor and have been whining, shrieking, and half-heartedly whacking toys around the other room ever since. Haven't changed out of their pull-up; haven't come in for a snack. I've pulled the snack table out of their view so they'll leave the other kids alone. Trying to engage in sympathetic conversation only elicits roaring. Time for a text message? Something like this?

"Hey! Li'l Bubba is up from their nap. Unfortunately, they are too sad to join us for the snack and have been screaming for a while. Since this is making snack time sad for everybody else, they're going to need to head home early today."

The bummer is they're shouting "Mama! Mama? Ma-MA!" over and over, so pick up is going to be a reward. I've spoken to the parent about making sure that the day is SUPER-BORING and NO FUN if they have to be picked up, but that's not how I think it went the other day I texted for pickup.
It may be a reward for the child but without a consequence for the PARENT the child will never learn boundaries.

Teach the parent (by giving issue back to them) so that they are inconvenienced enough to teach their child.

Win win for all!


The other option is simply dealing with the child on your own. Even if you teach child, the other kids, yourself and the child in question must endure the long process of it all and since you would be the only one teaching the child, it'll be like shoveling while it's still snowing out.

So my suggestion is to allow up to 3 instances max (depending on how flexible you are or want to be) and then calling for pick up. Eventually the parent will realize they need to do something to change the situation for everyone''s benefit.
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
How would you turn it back to the parent?
  • prolonged full-body tantrums
  • hunts for objects in the room to throw over the gate at us
  • roars and thrashes around the room
  • jump up and run away during meal time
  • interrupt during story time
  • lunged at sibling
  • I will not let you hurt your sister," and child screamed "But I want to!" while clawing at the air in the direction of the sibling
  • swats activities from other kids
  • mock and taunt the other children during structured activities
  • takes toys
  • collapsed on the floor
  • have been whining, shrieking, and half-heartedly whacking toys around the other room ever since.
  • Haven't changed out of their pull-up
  • haven't come in for a snack
  • I've pulled the snack table out of their view so they'll leave the other kids alone
  • conversation only elicits roaring

"Hey! Li'l Bubba is up from their nap. Unfortunately, they are too sad to join us for the snack and have been screaming for a while. Since this is making snack time sad for everybody else, they're going to need to head home early today."
I mean this in the most respectable way possible but he is almost 4, not 2. I don't accept those behaviors from a two-year-old there in no way on gods green earth I'd allow it from an almost 4-year-old.

My text would be "Johnny is being disruptive again, this is preventing me from caring properly for other children. This is not age appropriate behavior. I cannot allow this to continue. I am available tonight or tomorrow night at 6 pm for a conference to plan out a new behavior plan because our current one is simply not working, which option works better for you? Thanks in advance."

My clients know this is the death knell and take it very seriously. 30 days without a turn around and they are gone from this point. If another child is injured, that will be his last day. Period. Dot.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:04 AM
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I feel like it is extremely strange that you are doing everything “right” and this child is not really learning. I would terminate because there is clearly a developmental delay. I have had 18 month olds catch on quicker than this.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:45 AM
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This sounds like the child I recently gave notice to. After many conferences and offering resources, I give them notice as they were not interested in "helping" the issue. I agree with previous poster.....no coping skills and largely due to the environment from the home but it has escalated to the point, it will now take some intervention. The issues are sad and cause me to feel like a failure, but we are not miracle workers. We need help from the home; hang in there Pestle. Communicate with the parents and hold them accountable. I waited entirely too long before I termed. I allowed my heart to get into it and that was not a good thing. Good luck!
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
[b]
Child was sent home for behavior this week, where they prevented parent from getting work done. I've suggested family therapy for anxiety. I didn't mention depression or ADHD because it's not my role to diagnose. Fatigue, desire to make the other children unhappy, an inability to focus, guilt that turns into rage in a split second, backsliding on potty training, extreme clinginess to parent, prolonged full-body tantrums. It's all on the cusp of typical-but-undesirable behavior but, at this extreme and all together, it's adding up to something I think I'm not equipped to manage.
How is the other development going like speech and cognitive? Dramatic play? Cooperative play?

I don't think that this stuff sounds close to typical at all. To me, three year olds are learning to be reasonable, but four year olds I do expect to be reasonable.

I also feel like it's not inappropriate to ask for something from a doctor. I think it would be appropriate for you to say that you have serious concerns about social/emotional development and that you would like an assessment.
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Old 05-24-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mom2Two View Post
I think it would be appropriate for you to say that you have serious concerns about social/emotional development and that you would like an assessment.
So, I did this. I sent the parent a link to a page that listed red flags for emotional development, and said this is the time to address issues, before public school begins.

Pediatrician said the child is just spoiled. I don't think the parent understands the gravity of the situation. Child is out sick right now. Upon return, I'll state that child will be going home for:
  • Physical aggression
  • Prolonged screaming
  • Bolting from the daycare space/yard/walking rope
And I'll leave it at that. I already recommended parent look into affordable state behavioral options. If the doctor's dismissive attitude makes the parent think the behavior is no problem because there wasn't an immediate obvious label to put on it, I'll have to keep taking you'ns advice and make sure the problem stops being mine and starts being the parent's problem.

This was another "You were right; I just thought I knew better than you and had to learn the hard way" situation. Thank you all for being here. The other lesson you tried to teach me was "It is NEVER, EVER allergies." The same doctor said it was allergies. It was strep and conjunctivitis.

I don't have a lot of faith in this doctor!
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
So, I did this. I sent the parent a link to a page that listed red flags for emotional development, and said this is the time to address issues, before public school begins.

Pediatrician said the child is just spoiled. I don't think the parent understands the gravity of the situation. Child is out sick right now. Upon return, I'll state that child will be going home for:
  • Physical aggression
  • Prolonged screaming
  • Bolting from the daycare space/yard/walking rope
And I'll leave it at that. I already recommended parent look into affordable state behavioral options. If the doctor's dismissive attitude makes the parent think the behavior is no problem because there wasn't an immediate obvious label to put on it, I'll have to keep taking you'ns advice and make sure the problem stops being mine and starts being the parent's problem.

This was another "You were right; I just thought I knew better than you and had to learn the hard way" situation. Thank you all for being here. The other lesson you tried to teach me was "It is NEVER, EVER allergies." The same doctor said it was allergies. It was strep and conjunctivitis.

I don't have a lot of faith in this doctor!
Sheesh, if a child was so spoiled that they acted this way, I'd consider that serious enough.

It sounds like you just don't have any support from the parents with this very difficult situation.
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