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Old 06-05-2020, 10:08 AM
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Default Universal Income

I am familiar with Univeral Healthcare and Universal Preschool platforms, but today I heard the term Universal Income touted and it made my skin crawl.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:12 AM
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I'd have to know more about it, pros/cons, do other countries have it and does it work for them, would it make everybody's financial situations more equal, etc., etc? So many unknown variables but I could see how it wouldn't work the way they think it might.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:19 AM
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My fear is that of a parent and middle-class worker who was motivated to work hard and save to succeed in life. I pay my taxes to allow for good roads, police, schools and social services.

How do we raise our kids to work hard for their dreams if they can just lay about, play video games and collect? An entire generation of paid voters with no natural intrinsic motivation scares the ____ out of me. What happens when everyone stops paying taxes because they don't earn enough? It just really scares me for the next generation.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
I am familiar with Univeral Healthcare and Universal Preschool platforms, but today I heard the term Universal Income touted and it made my skin crawl.

Thoughts?
First thought that popped into my head was "oh hell no!"
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
My fear is that of a parent and middle-class worker who was motivated to work hard and save to succeed in life. I pay my taxes to allow for good roads, police, schools and social services.

How do we raise our kids to work hard for their dreams if they can just lay about, play video games and collect? An entire generation of paid voters with no natural intrinsic motivation scares the ____ out of me. What happens when everyone stops paying taxes because they don't earn enough? It just really scares me for the next generation.
Which is why capitalism works. I didn't want my kids to live in trailer or be teased for being trash like I was. I worked my butt off to improve my socio-economic status.

This isn't the first I have heard of this. I just don't think it will work long term. Our country is bankrupt now. We can't be given more money than we pay in taxes.

Eg. We pay in about 35,000/year. If they give me a univeral income of 20,000 and my husband a universal income of 20,000 that's a loss.

Most families don't pay that much in. So a single mom making 26,000/year gets an 8,000 tax return (real figures, happened to my DCM) so she 'makes' 34,000 and pays NOTHING in, and then gets additional income of 20,000. Now is no longer poverty level so no more free health insurance, WIC, food stamps, section 8 housing. That will end up COSTING her.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Josiegirl View Post
I'd have to know more about it, pros/cons, do other countries have it and does it work for them, would it make everybody's financial situations more equal, etc., etc? So many unknown variables but I could see how it wouldn't work the way they think it might.
In my opinion, if one does not like there current financial situation/income, there are many different ways to change that.

We all ready pay enough in taxes. Our country is broke. Able bodied people need to support themselves.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:57 AM
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Isn't this something like Andrew Yang was proposing when he was running for president? He had some solid reasons why it would work and would be a good thing, although I can't remember them now. But, it was interesting to hear his reasoning, something out of the box.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:58 AM
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I also wonder what the rebound effect would be. People like me will get tired of paying for everyone else and just stop. Can't beat them, join them.

I won't even go far into the whole "idle hands" issue that follows.
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Old 06-05-2020, 11:02 AM
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Isn't this something like Andrew Yang was proposing when he was running for president?
One of the men running for congress in my state is also using this platform pretty loudly today. That is what got me thinking about it. He is running for Rep. John Lewis's seat. That, in and of itself, will be a hard feat.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:56 PM
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I kinda feel like we already universal income.

I definitely don't feel like I am working my butt off for me/my family.

It feels like I am working hard so that so many others can have a good life.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:19 PM
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This is a hot topic on both sides and there are a lot of Talking Heads that want us to listen to them, decide and repeat; always so helpful telling us what we should think. I think anybody looking at this needs to do a little bit of research and think about the outcomes on both sides of the issue.

From what I understand the idea is to give people a "supplement" to their income not a way to make a living income.

I believe that if we took just a fraction of the money that we put towards weapons and endless war we could pay each American $1,000 a month just for being a citizen. For some it could make a difference in saving for retirement, for others it could mean getting out of poverty.

It does sound like this could help put an end to economic disparity, homelessness, etc. These are things that we end up paying for indirectly through taxes anyway.
I look at what we are doing now to address these issues as reactive. I see this as more of a proactive approach and look at it a universal tax break.

Some of the arguments on this topic make me think about the vineyard workers, IYGWIM.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Faith is a gift too View Post
This is a hot topic on both sides and there are a lot of Talking Heads that want us to listen to them, decide and repeat; always so helpful telling us what we should think. I think anybody looking at this needs to do a little bit of research and think about the outcomes on both sides of the issue.

From what I understand the idea is to give people a "supplement" to their income not a way to make a living income.

I believe that if we took just a fraction of the money that we put towards weapons and endless war we could pay each American $1,000 a month just for being a citizen. For some it could make a difference in saving for retirement, for others it could mean getting out of poverty.

It does sound like this could help put an end to economic disparity, homelessness, etc. These are things that we end up paying for indirectly through taxes anyway.
I look at what we are doing now to address these issues as reactive. I see this as more of a proactive approach and look at it a universal tax break.

Some of the arguments on this topic make me think about the vineyard workers, IYGWIM.
When people are given something for nothing, they become accustomed to that concept and lose motivation to work.

Not to mention the costs of implementing something like that would be in the trillions (I think I read something like 3.9 trillion) so while the idea is great in theory, I think in reality it would be similar to many of the social programs we already have.

Head Start is one example. Looks and sounds great in theory but in reality... yeah, not so much.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by daycarediva View Post
Which is why capitalism works. I didn't want my kids to live in trailer or be teased for being trash like I was. I worked my butt off to improve my socio-economic status.

This isn't the first I have heard of this. I just don't think it will work long term. Our country is bankrupt now. We can't be given more money than we pay in taxes.

Eg. We pay in about 35,000/year. If they give me a univeral income of 20,000 and my husband a universal income of 20,000 that's a loss.

Most families don't pay that much in. So a single mom making 26,000/year gets an 8,000 tax return (real figures, happened to my DCM) so she 'makes' 34,000 and pays NOTHING in, and then gets additional income of 20,000. Now is no longer poverty level so no more free health insurance, WIC, food stamps, section 8 housing. That will end up COSTING her.
I can see your argument here, but on the flip side I think we all hope that our children don't have to work their butts off and we all hope that we can retire someday.

I don't imagine that having Universal income will make them lazy, we instill a work ethic in them, I don't think that this will take it away.

I imagine a lot of us work 50 hour work weeks, I don't want that for my children.

For the tax implications I would say I could have less kids in the house, set my hours to shorter days,
make more donations, and definitely contribute more to retirement.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Faith is a gift too View Post
I can see your argument here, but on the flip side I think we all hope that our children don't have to work their butts off and we all hope that we can retire someday.

I don't imagine that having Universal income will make them lazy, we instill a work ethic in them, I don't think that this will take it away.
It already has. There are more people in this country that don't work than there are that do. (NOT referring to those that aren't old enough, are too old and those physically and/or mentallyunable). So WHO is instilling this work ethic into society?

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Originally Posted by Faith is a gift too View Post
I imagine a lot of us work 50 hour work weeks, I don't want that for my children.
My children already have to work long hours. They have to pay for their college educations as well as pay taxes so that the millions of people now that don't choose to work can continue living comfortably.

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Originally Posted by Faith is a gift too View Post
For the tax implications I would say I could have less kids in the house, set my hours to shorter days,
make more donations, and definitely contribute more to retirement.
You can do that now. I choose to have less children in my care than I could and choose to have shorter hours than I used to. I do this by giving up certain ammenities. I don't have a brand new car, a 2500 sq ft house or take trips multiple times per year. I choose to earn the amount of income I need to live the life I choose to live.

Everyone has choices. So again, while universal income might be a good idea in theory, it isn't feasible in real life.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sammie View Post
In my opinion, if one does not like there current financial situation/income, there are many different ways to change that.

We all ready pay enough in taxes. Our country is broke. Able bodied people need to support themselves.
True, but trying to change your situation is a lot easier for some than others:
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news...-your-destiny-

This study makes me think about the earthquake in Haiti a few years back, my child asked me, "why don't those people just leave?" "honey, sometimes it's not that easy"

Most of our social programs right now tell people how they can use the money: food stamps, Wic. Universal income would give people the freedom to use it to better their situation any way they see fit. Maybe saving up for a downpayment on a home, so they can move out of the situation that they are currently living in or retiring 10 years early.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
When people are given something for nothing, they become accustomed to that concept and lose motivation to work.

Not to mention the costs of implementing something like that would be in the trillions (I think I read something like 3.9 trillion) so while the idea is great in theory, I think in reality it would be similar to many of the social programs we already have.

Head Start is one example. Looks and sounds great in theory but in reality... yeah, not so much.
Universal income is not like any of the other social programs that we have. It gives people the freedom to manage and use the money for whatever they choose.

I see it as a hand up not a handout.

If it does get approved, I would like to see a lot of the other social programs rolled back, like head start, food stamps, free school lunches.

I think this will give people a chance to be use the income to better their situation however they see fit.

"When people are given something for nothing, they become accustomed to that concept and lose motivation to work.":

I've not seen a lot of loss of motivation for work in people when they are given something for nothing, but I have seen plenty of people take advantage of a system that gives them something for nothing when they should be managing their money better.

i.e.:
Lately, people on the evening news driving up for free school lunches with their nails and hair done in a brand new Lexus makes me think that Universal income would be a huge improvement.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Faith is a gift too View Post
True, but trying to change your situation is a lot easier for some than others:
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news...-your-destiny-

This study makes me think about the earthquake in Haiti a few years back, my child asked me, "why don't those people just leave?" "honey, sometimes it's not that easy"

Most of our social programs right now tell people how they can use the money: food stamps, Wic. Universal income would give people the freedom to use it to better their situation any way they see fit. Maybe saving up for a downpayment on a home, so they can move out of the situation that they are currently living in or retiring 10 years early.
So why not invest the money that would be spent on Universal Income into better communities verses putting it in individual bank accounts?

Give people opportunities instead of dollars.

Many of the social programs that provide money or assistance to people does NOT tell them how to use that money. That's why so many are on it. WIC is the only one I can think if that limits what recipients get but only because they are given vouchers and not cash money.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:45 PM
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I've not seen a lot of loss of motivation for work in people when they are given something for nothing,
Free Child Care.

PERFECT example of how universal income would be disastrous.

When child care became free, those families stopped parenting their children.


Scientific evidence says there is a natural tension between extrinsic and intrinsic motives, and that financial rewards can ultimately depress or “crowd out” intrinsic goals (e.g., enjoyment, sheer curiosity, learning or personal challenge).


looking at it from the other end of it, it is a proven fact that people do not value what they did not earn. This is evident in every human that has been given things for free. You take care of those things you worked for. If it is free or given to you, there is no value. If there is no value, there is no reason to take care of it.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:48 PM
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It already has. There are more people in this country that don't work than there are that do. (NOT referring to those that aren't old enough, are too old and those physically and/or mentallyunable). So WHO is instilling this work ethic into society?



My children already have to work long hours. They have to pay for their college educations as well as pay taxes so that the millions of people now that don't choose to work can continue living comfortably.



You can do that now. I choose to have less children in my care than I could and choose to have shorter hours than I used to. I do this by giving up certain ammenities. I don't have a brand new car, a 2500 sq ft house or take trips multiple times per year. I choose to earn the amount of income I need to live the life I choose to live.

Everyone has choices. So again, while universal income might be a good idea in theory, it isn't feasible in real life.
No argument to whether we can do these things now. What I was addressing is if we had the extra there are ways to deal with it so that we don't have tax consequences later. That's what I was addressing.

I think any move towards Universal income would require that we roll back our failed social programs.

I agree, as it right now it doesn't seem like any of it is working very well, people are getting their nails done and not feeding their kids. I don't want a pay for people making bad decisions and using our failed programs as a cushion.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:58 PM
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No argument to whether we can do these things now. What I was addressing is if we had the extra there are ways to deal with it so that we don't have tax consequences later. That's what I was addressing.

I think any move towards Universal income would require that we roll back our failed social programs.

I agree, as it right now it doesn't seem like any of it is working very well, people are getting their nails done and not feeding their kids. I don't want a pay for people making bad decisions and using our failed programs as a cushion.

I agree!

I think though that "extra" quickly becomes expected and the line between the two is the issue.

NannyDe explains it well when daycare families are given extra... it quickly becomes expected and is rarely viewed as extra after the first time.

It's a common issue most providers that go above and beyond for a daycare family quickly figure out.
Most veteran providers FULLY understand how well that works.

The more you give, the more people take/expect.
When you charge a flat rate, people leave their kids from open to close every day.

When you charge per hour, it's amazing how short of a day or week a child will be in care.

To me, universal income would be the same way.

The REAL change that needs to happen in this country needs to come from within.

Last edited by Blackcat31; 06-05-2020 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:04 PM
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Free Child Care.

PERFECT example of how universal income would be disastrous.

When child care became free, those families stopped parenting their children.


Scientific evidence says there is a natural tension between extrinsic and intrinsic motives, and that financial rewards can ultimately depress or “crowd out” intrinsic goals (e.g., enjoyment, sheer curiosity, learning or personal challenge).


looking at it from the other end of it, it is a proven fact that people do not value what they did not earn. This is evident in every human that has been given things for free. You take care of those things you worked for. If it is free or given to you, there is no value. If there is no value, there is no reason to take care of it.
I think its a mindset: to me money is always valueable. But the obnoxious Italian tea set that my mother-in-law gave me, not valuable at all.

Well that's sad, is there a study on free childcare and parenting? I think it's a just thing for all parents; they care less for their children if they did not want them.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:15 PM
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So why not invest the money that would be spent on Universal Income into better communities verses putting it in individual bank accounts?

Give people opportunities instead of dollars.
I feel like this is already been done.

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So
Many of the social programs that provide money or assistance to people does NOT tell them how to use that money.
I don't know of too many that dont come with directives.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:23 PM
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I think though that "extra" quickly becomes expected and the line between the two is the issue.
I think the entitlement problem in our society is just as bad as work ethic but again I see that tying back to parenting so I imagine we will always have it but I don't see it as an argument against universal income.

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The REAL change that needs to happen in this country needs to come from within.
Of course.
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Old 06-05-2020, 04:41 PM
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I don't know of too many that dont come with directives.
Can you provide some examples?
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Old 06-05-2020, 04:53 PM
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Can you provide some examples?
Lets see, unemployment, social security/disability are the only social programs I know of that are cash money but I'm not an expert. I'm out now. Like to see if anyone else has thoughts. Thanks for the discussion, it's nice that we can actually talk about these things- makes me hopeful.
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:04 PM
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Unemployment is not really a social program.

Social programs such as TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, housing assistance etc are the social programs I’m referring to.
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Old 06-06-2020, 03:36 AM
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There are so many people without good work ethics, that feel they are owed something, that will take anything they can get and never think of giving themselves.

But to me, many people also strive to feel needed, necessary, important and need to have that feeling of a job well-done. They need to feel productive and worthy.

I could imagine many would look for the easy way out and/or not use extra funds for their best interest. There would HAVE to be stipulations put into place. And what about those that already have millions+, would they be allowed the extra that they clearly don't need? Would this be a case of 'take from the rich, give to the poor'? TBH, it wouldn't do my pride much good just to be on the taking side without adding something to society. Create programs where people can do community service or work, to earn these benefits so they're not considered free money. My God, what institution doesn't need extra help to keep it going?

There are so many left starving in this country, impoverished and living under bridges, etc., THOSE are the ones who are in true need. Why not do something to better their lives realistically? It feels, to me, that programs should be in place for those people and NOT for those who abuse it. People in true need have to jump impossible hurdles to make claims, get necessities whereas people who have grown up through a system know how to work it.

I'm not sure I like the whole universal pay idea but I believe we need to help the less fortunate in much better ways. In a country where potential meat/dairy/farm products are being destroyed yet people are starving.........where the he!! is the sense in that?? Too much paperwork and red tape, too much high end income for senseless spending.....too little needs filled.
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Old 06-06-2020, 04:02 AM
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And what about those that already have millions+, would they be allowed the extra that they clearly don't need? Would this be a case of 'take from the rich, give to the poor'?(
the idea of the universal income means that EVERYONE should get it. without any condition. Anyone can refuse it willingly. Any person who thinks that this amount is enough for his life will not look for work. Any other who wants to have more - will work.

The way 'take from the rich, give to the poor' was/is/will be the way to nowhere.
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