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  #1  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:19 AM
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Default Justin Ross Harris Trial

This case has intrigued me from the beginning, the trial finally started and I've been following it. In the trial groups I'm in I have already seen it mentioned that daycares should have to call when a child doesn't arrive on time. I knew that aspect would come up...anyone else following the trial?

Edited to add-This is the hot car death case
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:44 AM
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I haven't been following the trial, but I cringe thinking about that liability falling on us daycare providers. Scary.
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:46 AM
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I am not reading up on the case but somehow this is our responsibility? Ugh.

Car manufacturers really need to take the lead on this and make some sort of sensor system that goes off when movement is detected inside a car when the engine is off.
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:58 AM
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Why should car manufacturers be responsible? What happened to PARENT responsibility?
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by sharlan View Post
Why should car manufacturers be responsible? What happened to PARENT responsibility?
Parent responsibility is not working and kids are dying. These deaths are accidents not premeditated murder. A sensor would go a long way in saving kids lives. I dont think it is the responsibility of the car manufacturer I just think it would be a good thing if they did something like this.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:17 AM
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Why should car manufacturers be responsible? What happened to PARENT responsibility?
Yes. I have 4 kids. At one time, three of the 4 were in car seats. I worked or went to school during the car seat years. (At times both) I am forgetful, but I have never left one of my kiddos behind.

I don't think car seat alarms/sensors are a bad thing, but they aren't the auto manufacturers responsibility. And calling parents to about missed attendance shouldn't be a providers responsibility either. When kids are with their parents, the responsibility for a child safety falls on the parents.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ariana View Post
I am not reading up on the case but somehow this is our responsibility? Ugh.

Car manufacturers really need to take the lead on this and make some sort of sensor system that goes off when movement is detected inside a car when the engine is off.
Oh, I am really not in favor of this...the amount of hours I have spent in my car quietly reading while waiting for one of my kids to come out of sports practices... If I had a periodic alarm going off? No thanks.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:34 AM
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I'm not following the case because I just can't. I'm not able to sleep at night if I read terrible articles or watch the news about babies and kids dying, going missing etc.

But I personally have made the conscience decision to call clients that haven't arrived on time. For me it serves two purposes 1) to make sure that the client doesn't in fact leave their kid in their car or at home and 2) as an excuse to call when they are late to make sure that they are coming and just forgot to call me (and I don't just sit around waiting for them all day).

But that's my choice and I don't believe that it should be a forced requirement of a daycare. That would mean that a human is responsible to check on someone but there is always room for human error. Daycare is crazy and things could happen that makes it so that it can get lost in the shuffle and then what? It's the daycare's fault that a child dies because they didn't call and a parent forgot their child in the car? No way.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:41 AM
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I have not followed the case, but I too make the call (or text) if someone is late (I usually do about 30/45 minutes depending on the family and their habits) if I have not heard anything.

I do this for a couple of reasons, 1) to make sure no child was accidentally left behind and 2) to make sure a family wasn't in an accident on their way here. Many families travel on a major highway to get here AND we have a large snowbird population that comes this time of year. Without fail, there is at least 1 wrong way driver each day. I am always worried someone will be in an accident and no one will no until later. It just puts me at peace.

ETA: I do not feel the well checks should be the responsibility of the provider. Once the parent is out of my door I feel their child's well-being is solely their responsibility. I also think car seat alarms and car alarms are making it so parents are less responsible and less aware. We as a society have become so out of touch with the current moment and I feel that alarms like that only make it worse.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sharlan View Post
Why should car manufacturers be responsible? What happened to PARENT responsibility?


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Originally Posted by Rockgirl View Post
I haven't been following the trial, but I cringe thinking about that liability falling on us daycare providers. Scary.

With responsibility automatically comes liability.

No thanks. I refuse to take on a liability like that.

I would quit before I agreed to be responsible for a parent's distraction....it's just another way to basically reward parents for bad behaviors. Just make it someone else's fault.
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Old 10-24-2016, 10:11 AM
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I am one of those people that is constantly posting reminders about this on facebook everytime summer starts. At first I was sympathetic...these are accidents, the parents changed their schedule, routine took over, they went though the motions, it could happen to anybody. Now, it has gotten to the point where we are all very much aware of this danger, and the fact that parents have not done anything to prevent this and take on the attitude of "I would never do that to my child" and yet it's those parents that it happens to because they're too proud to realize that they are only human, that angers me so much!!!

I have taught myself, to the point where it is now instinct, to take a quick look in the back seat of my car just to be extra sure there's nothing important back there. I have never left my kid, but it was because of that behavior that I realized one of them left a cup of milk back there. That would have been a doozy in this crazy Houston heat!
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Old 10-24-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by spedmommy4 View Post
Yes. I have 4 kids. At one time, three of the 4 were in car seats. I worked or went to school during the car seat years. (At times both) I am forgetful, but I have never left one of my kiddos behind.

I don't think car seat alarms/sensors are a bad thing, but they aren't the auto manufacturers responsibility. And calling parents to about missed attendance shouldn't be a providers responsibility either. When kids are with their parents, the responsibility for a child safety falls on the parents.
Accidents happen because they are accidents. Thank God this has never happened to you, you are lucky. Every parent that this has ever had this happen , it happened when it was not part of their routine to drop a kid off or pick them up. It was an accident. It is for sure a parents responsibility but everything is invented to prevent human frailty and accidents.

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Oh, I am really not in favor of this...the amount of hours I have spent in my car quietly reading while waiting for one of my kids to come out of sports practices... If I had a periodic alarm going off? No thanks.
I am sure the genius engineers could come up with a better system. For example if the weight is in the backseat and is less than 40lbs. Or if the heat reaches a certain temp and there is movement detected. Ever notice the front passenger airbag gets turned off when the weight is less than a certain amount? Something like that.
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  #13  
Old 10-24-2016, 10:37 AM
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No way! This guy did this on purpose. He went out to his car 3 or 4 hours later and never noticed his son! My heart aches for that little boy. I still cry over this case. Parents need to be held accountable. I think he planned this and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
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Old 10-24-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sharlan View Post
Why should car manufacturers be responsible? What happened to PARENT responsibility?
AMEN!!!! I bet that they didn't forget their cell phones.


I post a reminder at the beginning of summer on my dc page.

I WILL NOT take on any parental responsibility, nor will I be held liable for the welfare of a child who is not even in my care.

They need to start charging these parents with manslaughter, at MINIMUM.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:02 AM
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I am a bit baffled by these responses. Maybe they should be charged with manslaughter, maybe it was deliberate BUT a child is still dead! It takes everyone doing their best to keep kids safe. If a sensor alerts a bystander that a child is locked in a hot car isnt that a good thing an alarm goes off if someone tries to steal my car, or if they drive away in my car a sensor shuts down the engine. Isn't a child locked in a hot car more important?

No amount of pointing fingers, getting on our high horse or saying it is the parents responsibility is going to bring back a dead child or prevent another child from dying.

I do agree that it is not MY responsibility as a caregiver to track the whereabouts of a child not in my care.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:04 AM
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Being responsible for a child when they are not in my care upsets me. I can't control a parents' actions and should not be held accountable.

With that said, I will contact a parent if they are 30 minutes outside of their dropoff time. But...I have some with a 90 minute window, so...a child could be stuck in the car for 2 hours before I reach out.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:17 AM
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I try not to judge. But this is a hard one.
I have forgotten cupcakes on the top of my car. I've forgotten my license, or my money at home. I've forgotten a bag of groceries in the shopping cart. But come on....a child??? Have we, as a nation of technology connections, made every other single thing more important than our own child/ren? As a provider, we all know how our minds and brains are usually going 100 m.p.h. but what is THE most important thing in our day?? And what should a mom or dad's most important part of their world be??
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:14 PM
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Regarding the responsibility of car manufacturers:

Nothing comes into being from a void. There is human thought, intention, and labor involved in all the stuff we use all day long. Ethical production requires the designers to stop and think hard about whether the current method is actually meeting the needs of all the populations who will interact with their product, or whether they're unintentionally handicapping people with bad design. (As the terms are used in the design industry, a disability is innate to people; a handicap is caused by flawed designs in the environment. A missing leg is a disability, but it only becomes a handicap when architects and city planners fail to accommodate that disability.)

Children are a special population, just like the elderly, the deaf, the blind, and those who have mobility impairment. But unlike all those other special populations, it's 100% guaranteed that everyone who's ever born will spend time as a child. And it's a huge failing on the part of the auto industry to design vehicles as though the only occupants worthy of comfort and safety are adults. That places the burden on other industries to come up with car seats and other accessories that can modify the vehicle to accommodate children. Even with those modifications, the fact is that vehicles, as currently designed, handicap children and their parents.

It's a bad design.
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:17 PM
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Maybe the car industry doesn't want to take on this liability either. If the seat/alarm what ever they design should fail they would be held liable for the death of the child.
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Old 10-24-2016, 01:10 PM
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It would be a wonderful thing if car manufacturers and childcare providers got on board but I doubt it will happen because of liability. I try to call parents if they're late but I make it a point in my contract to say I may not have time to call or Kay forget so it's their responsibility to contact me. I could just see the lawsuit if I didn't: "my daycare provider always called if I didn't get there on time but she didn't this day and this tragic thing happened!" Depending on the jury/judge it might not matter if I was busy with 7 other children or if someone had a blow-out or we were doing an activity..all that would matter is that in my contract it stated that I call if a child is late. Sad but we live in a world where passing the blame is common and people are sue happy.
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestle View Post
Regarding the responsibility of car manufacturers:

Nothing comes into being from a void. There is human thought, intention, and labor involved in all the stuff we use all day long. Ethical production requires the designers to stop and think hard about whether the current method is actually meeting the needs of all the populations who will interact with their product, or whether they're unintentionally handicapping people with bad design. (As the terms are used in the design industry, a disability is innate to people; a handicap is caused by flawed designs in the environment. A missing leg is a disability, but it only becomes a handicap when architects and city planners fail to accommodate that disability.)

Children are a special population, just like the elderly, the deaf, the blind, and those who have mobility impairment. But unlike all those other special populations, it's 100% guaranteed that everyone who's ever born will spend time as a child. And it's a huge failing on the part of the auto industry to design vehicles as though the only occupants worthy of comfort and safety are adults. That places the burden on other industries to come up with car seats and other accessories that can modify the vehicle to accommodate children. Even with those modifications, the fact is that vehicles, as currently designed, handicap children and their parents.

It's a bad design.
So true!
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:37 PM
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Not following and I don't call parents for that. This may sound harsh, but I don't really care what happens to them when they aren't in my care. I have my own children and nieces and nephews to worry about on my off hours. This is just a job. I'm sure my dcms and dcds don't give a flying fig about MY children. Second, I don't want them changing their mind and dropping them off because I called.
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:09 AM
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Not following and I don't call parents for that. This may sound harsh, but I don't really care what happens to them when they aren't in my care. I have my own children and nieces and nephews to worry about on my off hours. This is just a job. I'm sure my dcms and dcds don't give a flying fig about MY children. Second, I don't want them changing their mind and dropping them off because I called.
Wow you're right. It does come off as harsh.
I care about these dcks, a lot. And I do send off a text if they don't show up within an hour. BUT I still don't think the responsibility lies with us. It is with their parents. Involved parents just should not forget there's a child with them. Watching news coverage you see crap stuff happen all the time.Drugged parents passed out in the car with their child in the back seat. Anyone see that picture on the internet? Cases of a dad going into a bar leaving their child/ren in the car, middle of winter. Happened in my town of 6000. Foster dad and owner of local business went to HD, left the little children in the truck for 45 minutes. WTF? Those last 2 scenarios happened in my little town. Just imagine across the country... These parents should not be parents.
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:51 AM
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This case isn't about forgetting his son. He had to of known his son was in the car. He was a sicko and didn't want his son anymore. His daycare couldn't of known this. I guess had they of called would of blown his cover story. He was sexting a 16 year old while his son was dying. There will be no justice for this little boy ever.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:03 AM
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Wow you're right. It does come off as harsh.
I care about these dcks, a lot. And I do send off a text if they don't show up within an hour. BUT I still don't think the responsibility lies with us. It is with their parents. Involved parents just should not forget there's a child with them. Watching news coverage you see crap stuff happen all the time.Drugged parents passed out in the car with their child in the back seat. Anyone see that picture on the internet? Cases of a dad going into a bar leaving their child/ren in the car, middle of winter. Happened in my town of 6000. Foster dad and owner of local business went to HD, left the little children in the truck for 45 minutes. WTF? Those last 2 scenarios happened in my little town. Just imagine across the country... These parents should not be parents.
I agree those people should NOT be parents and are a plague to society but children dying in hot cars happens to all sorts of people. Do you remember the school principle that was on Oprah? She was not using drugs or going to bars she was a principle at a school and an upstanding person in her community. This has happened to doctors as well and has been well studied and documented by neuroscientists. It literally can happen to anyone!

"Dr. David Diamond has studied the inner workings of the human mind since 2004óspecifically how our brains allow us to commit such a horrific act as forgetting a child in a hot car. Diamond is a neuroscientist and professor with the University of South Florida who coined the term ďforgotten baby syndrome,Ē the mental process that leads to people to forget.

Diamond says it centers around two systems in our brains: habit memory and prospective memory.

Habit memories, he says, are based on actions that are performed on a day-to-day basis that become second nature. Itís how we can drive home from work without much thought, he says. Prospective memories, on the other hand, are the preparations we make of carrying out an act, such as planning a stop at the store on the way home from work.

Thereís an entire science behind it, the inner workings of our minds, but when itís all stripped down, Diamond says itís a matter of our habit memories, the routines we run every day, overruling our prospective memories, the added steps weíre not accustom to. Forgetting that extra step is as easy as walking to your car thinking about your day, or answering a phone call during the drive that shifts your mindís gears, allowing the habit memory system to take over. During the transition, Diamond says our minds can create a false memory of completing the task.

Sadly, Estisí case is far too common. Parents have been forgetting their children in hot cars for nearly 30 years, according to Kids And Cars. Itís an unthinkable tragedy that began to spike in the mid-1990s, a time when experts recommended car seats and young children be moved to the backseat due to the potential deadly dangers of passenger-side airbags.

The effects of the new laws meant to protect children ultimately put them out of sight and, in the most extreme cases, out of mind for parents, Fennell says."
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:25 AM
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I agree those people should NOT be parents and are a plague to society but children dying in hot cars happens to all sorts of people. Do you remember the school principle that was on Oprah? She was not using drugs or going to bars she was a principle at a school and an upstanding person in her community. This has happened to doctors as well and has been well studied and documented by neuroscientists. It literally can happen to anyone!

"Dr. David Diamond has studied the inner workings of the human mind since 2004óspecifically how our brains allow us to commit such a horrific act as forgetting a child in a hot car. Diamond is a neuroscientist and professor with the University of South Florida who coined the term ďforgotten baby syndrome,Ē the mental process that leads to people to forget.

Diamond says it centers around two systems in our brains: habit memory and prospective memory.

Habit memories, he says, are based on actions that are performed on a day-to-day basis that become second nature. Itís how we can drive home from work without much thought, he says. Prospective memories, on the other hand, are the preparations we make of carrying out an act, such as planning a stop at the store on the way home from work.

Thereís an entire science behind it, the inner workings of our minds, but when itís all stripped down, Diamond says itís a matter of our habit memories, the routines we run every day, overruling our prospective memories, the added steps weíre not accustom to. Forgetting that extra step is as easy as walking to your car thinking about your day, or answering a phone call during the drive that shifts your mindís gears, allowing the habit memory system to take over. During the transition, Diamond says our minds can create a false memory of completing the task.

Sadly, Estisí case is far too common. Parents have been forgetting their children in hot cars for nearly 30 years, according to Kids And Cars. Itís an unthinkable tragedy that began to spike in the mid-1990s, a time when experts recommended car seats and young children be moved to the backseat due to the potential deadly dangers of passenger-side airbags.

The effects of the new laws meant to protect children ultimately put them out of sight and, in the most extreme cases, out of mind for parents, Fennell says."
Basically this is saying that people started forgetting their kids when they got moved to the back seat.... out of sight.

That only further validates my thoughts that it is a tragic accident only .00000000001% of the time, the rest of the time, it's just carelessness.

I don't care if they are doctor's, cashiers, lawyers, waitresses, teachers, car salesmen, judges, nurses or members of the Senate.....their profession has nothing to do with their parenting.

If you are a parent you have a responsibility above and beyond your job. If your job is so stressful and time consuming that you forget your child, then you need to rethink priorities in your life.

I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for this. I just don't.

I am a parent and not once in all my years of parenting did I forget my child. Did I make stupid decisions and do dumb things? Sure! But none of it had anything to do with forgetting.... as a parent, I lived and breathed for my child.

Forgetting them is just outside my realm of understanding.

If what you posted about our habit forming memory functions are true then why aren't kids forgotten anywhere else on a regular basis?

Do parents put their child in their bedrooms at the end of the hallway and forget about them because they are out of sight? How about when they go to the bathroom and the child stays in the living room? Do they leave the house and forget their child is still home? Then why the car? What is it about the car that makes them forget their child?

My thoughts are that if the punishment was harsher for this type of tragedy, then I bet parents would start taking it more seriously and start figuring out ways to help them be responsible for THEIR child.

Relying on car manufacturers, daycare providers or anyone else not bearing a personal responsibility in the child-parent relationship is wrong and sadly it's only one of the shifts we've seen as of late that slowly removes the responsibility of child rearing from the parent and pretty much gives them an out for putting everything or anything above their child and their child's well being.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:47 AM
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I saw this cool baby monitor online (cannot remember where) and it was a video monitor, but it had a little stuffed animal with a camera that you could move anywhere in the house or put in the car (hung on the seat facing a rear-faced child). The car had a monitor in the front that the driver could see the baby on and the system was not tied to the car, so when you turned the car off, you still had to turn the monitor off. I thought how great a backseat camera could be for parents and maybe prevent this from happening. Car makers could make cars with them as an added feature, but not with the intended purpose of preventing these deaths, so it woudn't be a liability issue, but maybe it would help?

I don't know. These stories always make me sad. I have read much of the same studies as Ariana and it is a brain issue, not intentional. Most people ask that question..."How is it even possible?" "I could never do that!" And they are not wrong. THEY could not do it, but our brains are very powerful and they CAN do it. If you read the research on this, it is very interesting and slightly terrifying. But, in the end, it is sad and it ruins lives and families. I am not sure of this case in particular, but the majority of parents are never convicted of anything, because they never intended to cause harm...it was just a horrible accident.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:58 AM
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I call.

I have Safe Kids fliers and constant reminders.

"The Campaign Encourages Everyone to ACT

A: Avoid heatstroke-related injury and death by never leaving your child alone in a car, not even for a minute. Always lock your doors and trunks – even in your driveway. And keep your keys and key fobs out of the reach of kids.

C: Create reminders. Place something you'll need at your next stop - like a briefcase or cell phone - next to the child safety seat. It may seem simple, but can be a helpful reminder on a chaotic day.

T: Take action. If you see a child alone in a car, take action. Call 911. Emergency personnel are trained to respond to these situations.

In addition to safety messages and events, Never Leave Your Child Alone in a Car offers the Badge of Courage award, a recognition program for heroes who take action to prevent unattended child fatalities from heatstroke.

Safe Kids also supports NHTSA’s heatstroke education campaign, “Where’s Baby? Look Before You Lock,” and welcomes the increased national coordination on the issue. In 2012, Safe Kids partnered with NHTSA Administrator David Strickland to host news conferences around the country to raise awareness about heatstroke in children and urge parents and caregivers to ACT to help prevent future tragedies. "

All that said: This case is very different. That. Is. All.
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:03 AM
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I haven't really been following the trial, but do live near there. I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not, but I do know he received a group email or text from his child's center and that supposedly did not jog his memory.

At this point, we are not required to call or track our absent clients, but the lady from Bright from the Start advised me that they are considering adding that in to the regulations. Personally I don't like the idea. I don't have time to track my parents. A couple of my parents have schedule changes frequently. I love the idea of contracted hours, but here that is not the norm.

I am definitely absent minded and forget a lot of things, but even I have NEVER left my child. I don't see how that could happen, but I suppose it does. I vaguely even remember a juvenile judge that had a child die due to this. I am paranoid when it comes to checking the car after field trips also. We have 3 field trips scheduled this week. I double and triple check behind myself and my assistant.

Personally I do not like the new regs that have a child up to age 2 facing the rear. I think that potentially could have a child be less noticeable for anyone that is liable to "forget" their child.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:43 AM
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Maybe the car industry doesn't want to take on this liability either. If the seat/alarm what ever they design should fail they would be held liable for the death of the child.


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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Basically this is saying that people started forgetting their kids when they got moved to the back seat.... out of sight.

That only further validates my thoughts that it is a tragic accident only .00000000001% of the time, the rest of the time, it's just carelessness.

I don't care if they are doctor's, cashiers, lawyers, waitresses, teachers, car salesmen, judges, nurses or members of the Senate.....their profession has nothing to do with their parenting.

If you are a parent you have a responsibility above and beyond your job. If your job is so stressful and time consuming that you forget your child, then you need to rethink priorities in your life.

I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for this. I just don't.

I am a parent and not once in all my years of parenting did I forget my child. Did I make stupid decisions and do dumb things? Sure! But none of it had anything to do with forgetting.... as a parent, I lived and breathed for my child.

Forgetting them is just outside my realm of understanding.

If what you posted about our habit forming memory functions are true then why aren't kids forgotten anywhere else on a regular basis?

Do parents put their child in their bedrooms at the end of the hallway and forget about them because they are out of sight? How about when they go to the bathroom and the child stays in the living room? Do they leave the house and forget their child is still home? Then why the car? What is it about the car that makes them forget their child?

My thoughts are that if the punishment was harsher for this type of tragedy, then I bet parents would start taking it more seriously and start figuring out ways to help them be responsible for THEIR child.

Relying on car manufacturers, daycare providers or anyone else not bearing a personal responsibility in the child-parent relationship is wrong and sadly it's only one of the shifts we've seen as of late that slowly removes the responsibility of child rearing from the parent and pretty much gives them an out for putting everything or anything above their child and their child's well being.
proverbial nail on the head. Maybe a TINY percentage of these are accidents, but the rest? Absolutely deliberate or completely negligent.

I have NEVER forgotten my children ANYWHERE. I have 4 of them. They had varied schedules when they were young with therapy appointments and medical appointments and different daycares/preschools. Sometimes I would do them or dh would. We never left one in the car, or anywhere else for that matter. I'm not by any means a perfect parent, but I just CANNOT justify the death of a child with an excuse.

Same with SIDS now- parents know and chose to disregard safe sleep practices, if their child dies, they were negligent.

Personal accountability. Parents need to be held responsible.
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Old 10-25-2016, 11:06 AM
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I forget milk, bread, stamps, etc. I've never forgotten my kids.

But, I do think in rare cases, it's a truly horrific accident. The one that comes to mind is the teacher who returned to work after the summer and forgot to go to dc, because she had never done it before.

But I do think their are parents who are do it purposely and claim accident. Even more so now since we have the knowledge.

I do call parents but I would hate to be required to.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:35 PM
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I don't know anything about this specific trial but have read plenty of research on why it happens and believe that unfortunately it's a product of the super busy, incredibly stressed, multi-tasking society we live in where parents depend on both incomes. I'm sure there are cases of it being intentional but I've read so many stories of cases where it was most likely unintentional and those grieving parents are in a living hell.

I did forget my child in the car once. I completely forgot about it until just now. I was driving and my 2 yo daughter was in the back seat with a daycare boy who was like part of our family. They were singing, the hubby and I were laughing about how adorable they were from the front seat. Suddenly my daughter started having a seizure. I'd never seen a seizure before. I didn't know what was happening. I drove like a maniac to the closest hospital while screaming at my husband to crawl back and help her and other drivers to let me over. We pull up, hubby grabs her and runs in, I grab daycare boy and run in. He turns to me and says "where's the baby?" I left my newborn in the car! I ran out and got him but if hubby hadn't been with me it could have been tragic. It was winter and he'd even left the van door wide open! I was used to lugging my daughter and daycare boy everywhere, I wasn't used to grabbing the baby and this might have been one of the first times we were all out and about since he was born. I think part of me thought he grabbed the baby since he got my daughter out of that side of the car. I was also panicked and in a situation I've never been in before. This situation is different but the brain functioning is the same.

I've also thought I forgot a child before. Since my children usually go everywhere with me I can't tell you the amount of times I've pulled out of a store, seen the empty car seat in the rear view mirror and had a panic attack before I remembered they weren't with me or pulled up at home, went to get them out of the car seat only to realize they didn't come with me.

There have been times my hubby takes my daughter to soccer or my son to wrestling and I get ready to leave and run errands and realize he left the other child home (he usually takes them both with him). I've never actually forgotten one of them at home but I've had some close calls when he decided not to take one because they fell asleep and didn't think to tell me that he was changing how he normally does things.

I would have been utterly devastated if something happened to one of my children. If it was something that I did or didn't do that caused the tradegedy I'd probably be suicidal.
Since I can see how it can just be a horrible accident that happens after a "perfect storm" of irregular events that a parent isn't used to I don't think parents should be jailed for this unless it can be proven that it was intentional. I do think some required device in cars or on car seats would be helpful but they'd have to find a way to work around liability issues for the manufacturer of the device. They'd also have to make it mandatory for people with young children since NO ONE thinks it can happen to them because they would never ever forget their child....which is exactly why a majority of these accidents happen.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:48 PM
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Default It's the same memory/brain system causing us to forget things

People need to understand that if you have the ability to forget things like milk, bread, stamps, cellphone, keys, etc.; you DO have the capability of forgetting (or losing awareness) that your child is in the car with you. Our brain doesn't necessarily assign "worth" to what we forget or not.

As far as the number of cases where children are left alone in vehicles....90% unknowingly and 10% knowingly. Very different than most people believe; or should I say the exact opposite of what most posters have expressed in this thread.


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Originally Posted by Play Care View Post
I forget milk, bread, stamps, etc. I've never forgotten my kids.

But, I do think in rare cases, it's a truly horrific accident. The one that comes to mind is the teacher who returned to work after the summer and forgot to go to dc, because she had never done it before.

But I do think their are parents who are do it purposely and claim accident. Even more so now since we have the knowledge.

I do call parents but I would hate to be required to.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:54 PM
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This case isn't about forgetting his son. He had to of known his son was in the car. He was a sicko and didn't want his son anymore. His daycare couldn't of known this. I guess had they of called would of blown his cover story. He was sexting a 16 year old while his son was dying. There will be no justice for this little boy ever.
Not sure how YOU would know if he knew the baby was in the back seat or not.

The police stretched the truth on almost all aspects of this unthinkable tragedy.

Let's wait to hear all of the evidence before we make such predictions.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:00 PM
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Unhappy Well said!

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Originally Posted by Ariana View Post
So true!
Your assessment of the situation hit the nail on the head!

If the auto makers didn't have so many reminders in their cars already; there might be some sort of argument against installing a driver reminder system.

Reminder to put on your seat belt
Reminder so you don't leave your keys in the ignition
Reminder if your 'door is ajar'
Tire pressure reminder
Etc., etc., etc.,

The best analogy to this situation is that you cannot purchase a vehicle today that doesn't either turn your headlights off automatically for you or at the very least reminds you to turn off your headlights when leaving your vehicle.

What's more important? I dead car battery or a dead baby?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:02 PM
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i am a bit baffled by these responses. Maybe they should be charged with manslaughter, maybe it was deliberate but a child is still dead! It takes everyone doing their best to keep kids safe. If a sensor alerts a bystander that a child is locked in a hot car isnt that a good thing An alarm goes off if someone tries to steal my car, or if they drive away in my car a sensor shuts down the engine. Isn't a child locked in a hot car more important?

No amount of pointing fingers, getting on our high horse or saying it is the parents responsibility is going to bring back a dead child or prevent another child from dying.

I do agree that it is not my responsibility as a caregiver to track the whereabouts of a child not in my care.
amen!
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NeedaVaca View Post
Maybe the car industry doesn't want to take on this liability either. If the seat/alarm what ever they design should fail they would be held liable for the death of the child.
That would be the automakers excuse.....but think about absolutely everything else they put in our vehicles.

If the brakes fail....who's responsible?
If the car suddenly stops on a freeway...who's responsible?
If your car burst into flames...who's responsible?
If your car suddenly accelerates...who's responsible?

Millions of vehicles have been recalled over the past 2-3 years...who's responsible?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:11 PM
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Not sure how YOU would know if he knew the baby was in the back seat or not.

The police stretched the truth on almost all aspects of this unthinkable tragedy.

Let's wait to hear all of the evidence before we make such predictions.
It's fine if you have an opinion as it's your right but it's not your right to tell others how to feel or what their opinion should or shouldn't be.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:11 PM
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Exhibit A: The police stretched the truth on almost all aspects of this unthinkable tragedy.

Let's wait to hear all of the evidence before we make such predictions.
Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:26 PM
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This case has intrigued me from the beginning, the trial finally started and I've been following it. In the trial groups I'm in I have already seen it mentioned that daycares should have to call when a child doesn't arrive on time. I knew that aspect would come up...anyone else following the trial?

Edited to add-This is the hot car death case
What we need to institute is a system similar to the public school 'absence line.'

If a child does not show up at school AND the parents haven't call to let the school know that; they call to find out the whereabouts of that child.

It is the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY to call if the child is going to be absent. BUT, if their child is not present and they have not received a call from the parent; the school does call.

It seems reasonable for a similar system to be instituted at daycare facilities. One would hope it would be a rare occurrence that a child is not in attendance when they are scheduled to be there.

Additionally; if you are being paid for an entire day of taking care of them and their safety; a phone call seems to be a small 'ask' in exchange for receiving full-pay even when the child is not there.

Yet, hundreds of children would still be alive today if a daycare provider had called to find the whereabouts of a child left alone in a vehicle.

Think about your current policies surrounding what happens if children are NOT picked up at the agreed upon time. All sorts of protocols are in place for that occurrence.
You could even "charge" parents who don't call to let you know about the whereabouts of their child if a family becomes a repeat offender.

Thoughts?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by itsallaboutthekids View Post
What we need to institute is a system similar to the public school 'absence line.'

If a child does not show up at school AND the parents haven't call to let the school know that; they call to find out the whereabouts of that child.

It is the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY to call if the child is going to be absent. BUT, if their child is not present and they have not received a call from the parent; the school does call.

It seems reasonable for a similar system to be instituted at daycare facilities. One would hope it would be a rare occurrence that a child is not in attendance when they are scheduled to be there.

Additionally; if you are being paid for an entire day of taking care of them and their safety; a phone call seems to be a small 'ask' in exchange for receiving full-pay even when the child is not there.

Yet, hundreds of children would still be alive today if a daycare provider had called to find the whereabouts of a child left alone in a vehicle.

Think about your current policies surrounding what happens if children are NOT picked up at the agreed upon time. All sorts of protocols are in place for that occurrence.
You could even "charge" parents who don't call to let you know about the whereabouts of their child if a family becomes a repeat offender.

Thoughts?
So you are essentially blaming daycares for the death of these children???????
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  #42  
Old 10-25-2016, 01:30 PM
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It's fine if you have an opinion as it's your right but it's not your right to tell others how to feel or what their opinion should or shouldn't be.
Don't have an opinion, didn't tell you how to feel or what your opinion should be...just noted the 'facts' as we know them so far.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:32 PM
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Don't have an opinion, didn't tell you how to feel or what your opinion should be...just noted the 'facts' as we know them so far.
You admonished a poster for stating their opinion but yet you did the same thing.

Your opinion is factual but others are not?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:32 PM
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So you are essentially blaming daycares for the death of these children???????
No, not at all.

I'm just saying it would be good to institute an 'absence line.'

Everyone who is part of the team caring for an innocent child should be communicating with each other.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:35 PM
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Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy.
There is quite a big difference between the facts and opinion.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:37 PM
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That would be the automakers excuse.....but think about absolutely everything else they put in our vehicles.

If the brakes fail....who's responsible?
If the car suddenly stops on a freeway...who's responsible?
If your car burst into flames...who's responsible?
If your car suddenly accelerates...who's responsible?

Millions of vehicles have been recalled over the past 2-3 years...who's responsible?
I don't feel like it's the same thing as taking responsibility for parental neglect?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:37 PM
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No, not at all.

I'm just saying it would be good to institute an 'absence line.'

Everyone who is part of the team caring for an innocent child should be communicating with each other.
The liability a public school has is VASTLY different than the liability of a private self employed business owner.

Why should I have to take on additional responsibilities because some parents are stressed out or too busy to implement their own methods of making sure their child is never left in a car?

Why is it always someone else's responsibility first before the parent?

Do you know how many responsibilities child care providers take on each and every day...most of whom work alone.

If child care providers took on the responsibility of calling, what do you think the fall out would be if one day they forgot to call and something happened? Who do you think would be to blame? Who do you think will lose everything?

Curious why you aren't talking instead about what parents can do FIRST before asking car manufactures and child care providers etc to take responsibility. What can PARENTS do that will ensure THEIR child is safe?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:50 PM
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I don't think anyone said a daycare provider *shouldnt* call. But when they make it a requirement, we will be held liable. That's not something I am ready to take on.

Every time I see a post about one of these tragic deaths online, someone comments that the parents should make a reminder for themselves, like putting the diaper bag in the front seat. Then someone says, "You shouldn't NEED a reminder that your child is with you!" Ok, true enough. But if something so simple can prevent this, why not just do it?

The thought of me being liable for the death of a child who hasn't even reached my house for the day just scares the heck out of me. I pray it doesn't come to that.
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Old 10-25-2016, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by itsallaboutthekids View Post
No, not at all.

I'm just saying it would be good to institute an 'absence line.'

Everyone who is part of the team caring for an innocent child should be communicating with each other.
I did RE-READ and you said QUOTE "Yet, hundreds of children would still be alive today if a daycare provider had called to find the whereabouts of a child left alone in a vehicle." END QUOTE


How does that translate to we should institute an absence line????
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Old 10-25-2016, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by itsallaboutthekids View Post
What we need to institute is a system similar to the public school 'absence line.'

If a child does not show up at school AND the parents haven't call to let the school know that; they call to find out the whereabouts of that child.

It is the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY to call if the child is going to be absent. BUT, if their child is not present and they have not received a call from the parent; the school does call.

It seems reasonable for a similar system to be instituted at daycare facilities. One would hope it would be a rare occurrence that a child is not in attendance when they are scheduled to be there.

Additionally; if you are being paid for an entire day of taking care of them and their safety; a phone call seems to be a small 'ask' in exchange for receiving full-pay even when the child is not there.

Yet, hundreds of children would still be alive today if a daycare provider had called to find the whereabouts of a child left alone in a vehicle.

Think about your current policies surrounding what happens if children are NOT picked up at the agreed upon time. All sorts of protocols are in place for that occurrence.
You could even "charge" parents who don't call to let you know about the whereabouts of their child if a family becomes a repeat offender.

Thoughts?
Our public schools do not call when a child is absent .
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:28 PM
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There is quite a big difference between the facts and opinion.
I agree. Do you know the difference? I don't think you do.

Are you prepared to prove your statement. Show me the evidence where they proved, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the police stretched the truth of this case.

I double dog dare you.

You, my friend, are playing both the pot and the kettle today.
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  #52  
Old 10-25-2016, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsallaboutthekids View Post
What we need to institute is a system similar to the public school 'absence line.'

If a child does not show up at school AND the parents haven't call to let the school know that; they call to find out the whereabouts of that child.

It is the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY to call if the child is going to be absent. BUT, if their child is not present and they have not received a call from the parent; the school does call.

It seems reasonable for a similar system to be instituted at daycare facilities. One would hope it would be a rare occurrence that a child is not in attendance when they are scheduled to be there.

Additionally; if you are being paid for an entire day of taking care of them and their safety; a phone call seems to be a small 'ask' in exchange for receiving full-pay even when the child is not there.

Yet, hundreds of children would still be alive today if a daycare provider had called to find the whereabouts of a child left alone in a vehicle.

Think about your current policies surrounding what happens if children are NOT picked up at the agreed upon time. All sorts of protocols are in place for that occurrence.
You could even "charge" parents who don't call to let you know about the whereabouts of their child if a family becomes a repeat offender.

Thoughts?
An automated call or even a personal call made from a school with an actual secretary is vastly different from a home daycare. Parents show up late all of the time, forget to tell us about vacations, schedule changes and forget to call in when their child is sick. For some parents it's habitual and you just never know if their child is coming until they show up 2 hours late.
Imagine 8 families all arriving about the same time, Conversations with parents, well child checks at the door and dealing with separation anxiety. Then it's time to serve 8 children breakfast and deal with cooking, washing hands, documenting for the food program, serving, cleaning up. Little Johny hasnt arrived yet. This happens a lot and in the past you've called only to find out they slept in or he's not coming that day so it's not irregular that he hasn't arrived yet. You decide to call but wait, someone just threw their food on the floor, had a blow out diaper...etc. maybe after all of this you forget to call or maybe you remember but by now it's 2 hours after he was supposed to arrive when you finally get a chance to do so. What if you text instead? What if you call and no one answers so you leave a voice mail? Where would the liability end? Would providers have to call until they actually talked to a parent? Providers can't and shouldn't shoulder this responsibility. Could we charge parents for not calling in? Sure but that would be just one more fee we'd have to argue with parents about and still doesn't solve the problem of what if we don't call right away because we're taking care of multiple children of varied ages by ourselves.
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:09 PM
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I don't know anything about this specific trial but have read plenty of research on why it happens and believe that unfortunately it's a product of the super busy, incredibly stressed, multi-tasking society we live in where parents depend on both incomes. I'm sure there are cases of it being intentional but I've read so many stories of cases where it was most likely unintentional and those grieving parents are in a living hell.

I did forget my child in the car once. I completely forgot about it until just now. I was driving and my 2 yo daughter was in the back seat with a daycare boy who was like part of our family. They were singing, the hubby and I were laughing about how adorable they were from the front seat. Suddenly my daughter started having a seizure. I'd never seen a seizure before. I didn't know what was happening. I drove like a maniac to the closest hospital while screaming at my husband to crawl back and help her and other drivers to let me over. We pull up, hubby grabs her and runs in, I grab daycare boy and run in. He turns to me and says "where's the baby?" I left my newborn in the car! I ran out and got him but if hubby hadn't been with me it could have been tragic. It was winter and he'd even left the van door wide open! I was used to lugging my daughter and daycare boy everywhere, I wasn't used to grabbing the baby and this might have been one of the first times we were all out and about since he was born. I think part of me thought he grabbed the baby since he got my daughter out of that side of the car. I was also panicked and in a situation I've never been in before. This situation is different but the brain functioning is the same.

I've also thought I forgot a child before. Since my children usually go everywhere with me I can't tell you the amount of times I've pulled out of a store, seen the empty car seat in the rear view mirror and had a panic attack before I remembered they weren't with me or pulled up at home, went to get them out of the car seat only to realize they didn't come with me.

There have been times my hubby takes my daughter to soccer or my son to wrestling and I get ready to leave and run errands and realize he left the other child home (he usually takes them both with him). I've never actually forgotten one of them at home but I've had some close calls when he decided not to take one because they fell asleep and didn't think to tell me that he was changing how he normally does things.

I would have been utterly devastated if something happened to one of my children. If it was something that I did or didn't do that caused the tradegedy I'd probably be suicidal.
Since I can see how it can just be a horrible accident that happens after a "perfect storm" of irregular events that a parent isn't used to I don't think parents should be jailed for this unless it can be proven that it was intentional. I do think some required device in cars or on car seats would be helpful but they'd have to find a way to work around liability issues for the manufacturer of the device. They'd also have to make it mandatory for people with young children since NO ONE thinks it can happen to them because they would never ever forget their child....which is exactly why a majority of these accidents happen.
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Originally Posted by itsallaboutthekids View Post
People need to understand that if you have the ability to forget things like milk, bread, stamps, cellphone, keys, etc.; you DO have the capability of forgetting (or losing awareness) that your child is in the car with you. Our brain doesn't necessarily assign "worth" to what we forget or not.

As far as the number of cases where children are left alone in vehicles....90% unknowingly and 10% knowingly. Very different than most people believe; or should I say the exact opposite of what most posters have expressed in this thread.
I agree with both of you. The brain is powerful and there are parts that are working almost robotically, not emotionally, so whether it's your kid or your keys, it can happen
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:34 PM
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Basically this is saying that people started forgetting their kids when they got moved to the back seat.... out of sight.

That only further validates my thoughts that it is a tragic accident only .00000000001% of the time, the rest of the time, it's just carelessness.

I don't care if they are doctor's, cashiers, lawyers, waitresses, teachers, car salesmen, judges, nurses or members of the Senate.....their profession has nothing to do with their parenting.

If you are a parent you have a responsibility above and beyond your job. If your job is so stressful and time consuming that you forget your child, then you need to rethink priorities in your life.

I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for this. I just don't.

I am a parent and not once in all my years of parenting did I forget my child. Did I make stupid decisions and do dumb things? Sure! But none of it had anything to do with forgetting.... as a parent, I lived and breathed for my child.

Forgetting them is just outside my realm of understanding.

If what you posted about our habit forming memory functions are true then why aren't kids forgotten anywhere else on a regular basis?

Do parents put their child in their bedrooms at the end of the hallway and forget about them because they are out of sight? How about when they go to the bathroom and the child stays in the living room? Do they leave the house and forget their child is still home? Then why the car? What is it about the car that makes them forget their child?

My thoughts are that if the punishment was harsher for this type of tragedy, then I bet parents would start taking it more seriously and start figuring out ways to help them be responsible for THEIR child.

Relying on car manufacturers, daycare providers or anyone else not bearing a personal responsibility in the child-parent relationship is wrong and sadly it's only one of the shifts we've seen as of late that slowly removes the responsibility of child rearing from the parent and pretty much gives them an out for putting everything or anything above their child and their child's well being.
You don't think that the death of a child is punishment enough? That jail would be worse for them? Some of these parents are suicidal and lose their jobs they are so distraught. Who in their right mind would say "I will leave my kid in this hot care because I am not going to go to jail for it". To me it just doesn't make sense. If a parent is abusive and has a history of mistreating their child then yeah maybe I would believe it to be malicious but to say that a regular parent would pay more attention because of jail time is not something I believe at all.

I bet in all of those scenarios you mentioned a child has been forgotten. I remember my brother and I going skiing during a weekday. We never went skiing on a weekday. Neither parent remembered to pick us up afterward. The only difference is we didn't die so it didn't make front page news. parents forget their kids all the time!
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:38 PM
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For the record if a child does not show up to daycare I do call or text to find out where they are. Don't we all do that just to make sure they weren't in an accident or the child isn't sick?

Just curious if most of us do this or not? Not saying we should be liable because I don't think it is our responsibility just curious.
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Old 10-26-2016, 04:18 AM
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For the record if a child does not show up to daycare I do call or text to find out where they are. Don't we all do that just to make sure they weren't in an accident or the child isn't sick?

Just curious if most of us do this or not? Not saying we should be liable because I don't think it is our responsibility just curious.
I have infants this year and I do. But not because I have to.

But if the parent doesn't answer or respond to the text, I don't spend half the morning trying to reach someone. I have other kids who are here that need me.
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Old 10-26-2016, 06:05 AM
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What we need to institute is a system similar to the public school 'absence line.'

If a child does not show up at school AND the parents haven't call to let the school know that; they call to find out the whereabouts of that child.

It is the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY to call if the child is going to be absent. BUT, if their child is not present and they have not received a call from the parent; the school does call.

It seems reasonable for a similar system to be instituted at daycare facilities. One would hope it would be a rare occurrence that a child is not in attendance when they are scheduled to be there.

Additionally; if you are being paid for an entire day of taking care of them and their safety; a phone call seems to be a small 'ask' in exchange for receiving full-pay even when the child is not there.

Yet, hundreds of children would still be alive today if a daycare provider had called to find the whereabouts of a child left alone in a vehicle.

Think about your current policies surrounding what happens if children are NOT picked up at the agreed upon time. All sorts of protocols are in place for that occurrence.
You could even "charge" parents who don't call to let you know about the whereabouts of their child if a family becomes a repeat offender.

Thoughts?
I am shocked by the bolded comment. How about 'Hundreds of children would be alive had parents put a plan into place to remember their child in the back seat."

Especially given the increased awareness and media coverage of these incidents. I post a reminder to parents on my dc page at the beginning of summer.

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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
The liability a public school has is VASTLY different than the liability of a private self employed business owner.

Why should I have to take on additional responsibilities because some parents are stressed out or too busy to implement their own methods of making sure their child is never left in a car?

Why is it always someone else's responsibility first before the parent?

Do you know how many responsibilities child care providers take on each and every day...most of whom work alone.

If child care providers took on the responsibility of calling, what do you think the fall out would be if one day they forgot to call and something happened? Who do you think would be to blame? Who do you think will lose everything?

Curious why you aren't talking instead about what parents can do FIRST before asking car manufactures and child care providers etc to take responsibility. What can PARENTS do that will ensure THEIR child is safe?
Our school calls for state attendance purposes. They ONLY call after lunch. Wouldn't save a person.

I have parents with varied drop offs, so for most of my kids with a 60 minute drop off window (depending on which parent is bringing them in), it would already be too late by the time I would consider them 'absent' for the day and even make that call.

Parents do NOT WANT a 10-15 minute drop off window or a set drop off time.

I am BUSY during that time. I am getting 4 kids fed/on the bus and getting 5 preschoolers (assuming one is absent) ready for breakfast and settled in.

I do NOT want to be liable for a child who isn't even in my care. My liability is already insanely high. Why should I lose my license/career/financial stability because of a parent's negligence?

I love my dcks, but I do NOT want to be responsible for them when they're not here.

PARENTS are responsible when they are with their child.
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Old 10-26-2016, 06:09 AM
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You don't think that the death of a child is punishment enough? That jail would be worse for them? Some of these parents are suicidal and lose their jobs they are so distraught. Who in their right mind would say "I will leave my kid in this hot care because I am not going to go to jail for it". To me it just doesn't make sense. If a parent is abusive and has a history of mistreating their child then yeah maybe I would believe it to be malicious but to say that a regular parent would pay more attention because of jail time is not something I believe at all.

I bet in all of those scenarios you mentioned a child has been forgotten. I remember my brother and I going skiing during a weekday. We never went skiing on a weekday. Neither parent remembered to pick us up afterward. The only difference is we didn't die so it didn't make front page news. parents forget their kids all the time!
Yesterday when the detective was on the stand he was asked if Justin Ross Harris had a history of abuse. His reply was -other than the death of his son?
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:00 AM
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You don't think that the death of a child is punishment enough? That jail would be worse for them? Some of these parents are suicidal and lose their jobs they are so distraught. Who in their right mind would say "I will leave my kid in this hot care because I am not going to go to jail for it". To me it just doesn't make sense. If a parent is abusive and has a history of mistreating their child then yeah maybe I would believe it to be malicious but to say that a regular parent would pay more attention because of jail time is not something I believe at all.

I bet in all of those scenarios you mentioned a child has been forgotten. I remember my brother and I going skiing during a weekday. We never went skiing on a weekday. Neither parent remembered to pick us up afterward. The only difference is we didn't die so it didn't make front page news. parents forget their kids all the time!
I am not at all arguing that it isn't tragic and horrible that this type of thing happens at all.

My point is that it IS PREVENTABLE! In everything we do there is a risk involved. There is always that small percentage where nothing we could have done would have prevented a situation from happening but in MOST (not all but most) cases it is pure overload on the parent's part..... too much on their minds, work issues, having to add extra duties to their daily routines etc.... basically just too much on their mind at that particular time to keep their child in the forefront of their thoughts.

The second a parent walks out the door with that child THEY bear a responsibility to that child. To keep the child safe from any dangers outside their home. It's the parents responsibility to keep their child's well being/needs and their physical presence on their radar until they hand that child off to the next responsible adult.

They need to put their work issues aside, their marital stress, the issues from the day to day grind of life and FOCUS on the child while they are the one in charge. If it has to be conscious effort, then conscious effort needs to be put forth.

If our brains can be programmed to forget things then they can be trained to do the opposite.

How many times have you heard a child care provider say every time they go somewhere, they count kids or they are constantly surveying the room for kids or dangers etc..?

Because we have become programmed to do this. It has become a conscious (and sometimes unconscious) behavior. We taught ourselves to be conscious of the number of kids, exits, dangers present etc...

Do I think parents don't suffer when this type of thing happens? Of course they do.... I'm not even going to argue that point....

But I still feel that when YOU (general you) take on the responsibility of being a parent that human life is YOUR responsibility. period. It's YOUR job to put that child ahead of all else and protect them from harm. Including harm from your forgetfulness or your lack of thought.

Your example of going skiing and being forgotten is not even remotely the same. You were old enough to ski.
Your parents weren't in baby mode. The consequences (for them and for you and your brother) are vastly different in that example. Your parents forgetting didn't put your lives at risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariana View Post
For the record if a child does not show up to daycare I do call or text to find out where they are. Don't we all do that just to make sure they weren't in an accident or the child isn't sick?

Just curious if most of us do this or not? Not saying we should be liable because I don't think it is our responsibility just curious.
Nope. I don't call or text.

In certain circumstances I might and more than likely have called but not on a regular basis. I don't parent parents.

If I did, it automatically make me part of the equation and I don't want that liability. I know everyone keeps saying it's not in their policies to call so they wouldn't be responsible but if you call one day (even if you don't have to) you are automatically to blame the one day you don't.

We're already responsible for doing so much that really what's left for the parents to do anymore?
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
I am not at all arguing that it isn't tragic and horrible that this type of thing happens at all.

My point is that it IS PREVENTABLE! In everything we do there is a risk involved. There is always that small percentage where nothing we could have done would have prevented a situation from happening but in MOST (not all but most) cases it is pure overload on the parent's part..... too much on their minds, work issues, having to add extra duties to their daily routines etc.... basically just too much on their mind at that particular time to keep their child in the forefront of their thoughts.

The second a parent walks out the door with that child THEY bear a responsibility to that child. To keep the child safe from any dangers outside their home. It's the parents responsibility to keep their child's well being/needs and their physical presence on their radar until they hand that child off to the next responsible adult.

They need to put their work issues aside, their marital stress, the issues from the day to day grind of life and FOCUS on the child while they are the one in charge. If it has to be conscious effort, then conscious effort needs to be put forth.

If our brains can be programmed to forget things then they can be trained to do the opposite.

How many times have you heard a child care provider say every time they go somewhere, they count kids or they are constantly surveying the room for kids or dangers etc..?

Because we have become programmed to do this. It has become a conscious (and sometimes unconscious) behavior. We taught ourselves to be conscious of the number of kids, exits, dangers present etc...

Do I think parents don't suffer when this type of thing happens? Of course they do.... I'm not even going to argue that point....

But I still feel that when YOU (general you) take on the responsibility of being a parent that human life is YOUR responsibility. period. It's YOUR job to put that child ahead of all else and protect them from harm. Including harm from your forgetfulness or your lack of thought.

Your example of going skiing and being forgotten is not even remotely the same. You were old enough to ski.
Your parents weren't in baby mode. The consequences (for them and for you and your brother) are vastly different in that example. Your parents forgetting didn't put your lives at risk.



Nope. I don't call or text.

In certain circumstances I might and more than likely have called but not on a regular basis. I don't parent parents.

If I did, it automatically make me part of the equation and I don't want that liability. I know everyone keeps saying it's not in their policies to call so they wouldn't be responsible but if you call one day (even if you don't have to) you are automatically to blame the one day you don't.

We're already responsible for doing so much that really what's left for the parents to do anymore?
I think we agree on most of this issue. I DO think it is a parents responsibility. I DO think they are to blame for this happening. I guess I also realize that some parents are capable of forgetting given a certain set of circumstances. I also think that a death can be prevented by calculating human error and figuring out a solution to prevent deaths. That is my bottom line.

I don't think car manufacturers will make a sensor because the liability is too high if the sensor fails. Having said that the liability is pretty high if an airbag doesn't deploy during an accident so what is the difference? Car manufacturers are sued every year for wrongful deaths. Just recently Honda CRV was recalled due to a pin coming loose when the airbag was deployed puncturing a man in the chest.

Good discussion at any rate
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:15 AM
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Yesterday when the detective was on the stand he was asked if Justin Ross Harris had a history of abuse. His reply was -other than the death of his son?
That is not a history of abuse no matter what the officers snide comment was. A history of abuse is an ongoing issue of maltreatment of a child over weeks, months or years.
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:45 AM
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That is not a history of abuse no matter what the officers snide comment was. A history of abuse is an ongoing issue of maltreatment of a child over weeks, months or years.
I don't need a definition of a history of abuse? I think he's just pointing out that leaving a child in a car is abuse/neglect and the one time it happened resulted in death. One time is all it takes. Snide comment or not, he made his point.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:28 AM
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I think we agree on most of this issue. I DO think it is a parents responsibility. I DO think they are to blame for this happening. I guess I also realize that some parents are capable of forgetting given a certain set of circumstances. I also think that a death can be prevented by calculating human error and figuring out a solution to prevent deaths. That is my bottom line.

I don't think car manufacturers will make a sensor because the liability is too high if the sensor fails. Having said that the liability is pretty high if an airbag doesn't deploy during an accident so what is the difference? Car manufacturers are sued every year for wrongful deaths. Just recently Honda CRV was recalled due to a pin coming loose when the airbag was deployed puncturing a man in the chest.

Good discussion at any rate
While it is preventable nobody thinks it will happen to them and there in lies the problem. If you don't think something could ever happen to you then you don't take steps to prevent it. Then a perfect storm erupts, disaster strikes and most people respond to it by saying "how could you forget your child? I would never forget my child. Why didn't you put the diaper bag in the front seat/put one of your shoes in the back seat/remember your child?" Even though most don't do those things themselves because like the parent who forgot their child they also think it could never happen to them. It's a vicious cycle that will never end until parents realize that no matter how much you love your child, how responsible you are, etc. you can end up in the same situation.

Daycare providers have forgotten children in daycare vans. Providers who are used to counting children. Then a child falls asleep hunkered down in the seat, doesn't get off at their school stop and the provider doesn't remember this because he/she was scanning traffic to make sure the ones getting off at the stop were safe. Then she pulls up to the daycare and doesn't even think to check because in their mind this day is like every other day and all the children were dropped off. Of course most daycares have systems in place these days to prevent this from happening but it still happens. There is little argument to be had that the provider did it intentionally.

Of course there is some negligence involved but it's not intentional. So I guess I don't know what these parents should be charged with. Negligent homicide? I don't know I guess I think of jail as a place we should put people who are a danger to society not a place we should people were just mad at for a horrible accident. And what makes people more angry than the death of an innocent child? I guess one could argue that a person speeding through a school zone and hitting a child is also an accident but they also chose to speed whereas a parent who leaves a child in a car didn't choose anything it was them not doing something that caused the tradgedy. If a parent forgets to latch the baby gate at the stairs and the child falls and dies do we charge them? There are just so many instances accidents that can happen when it comes to taking care of a child that could then be prosecuted.

No one I know would ever believe i forgot my infant in the car because I'm hyper-vigilant about their safety. I make lists for everything. My children are the center of my world. I'm always counting heads and scanning for safety problems even when I don't need to but I did forget due to the perfect storm of exhaustion due to a newborn, unfamiliar circumstances and overloaded circuits. I was just lucky. Who knows if I would have forgotten if my husband wasn't there to get my daughter out and I had been responsible for all of the children? I don't. I don't know why I didn't remember that one time and can only chalk it up to a perfect storm of events. If something had happened no one witnessing the incident would have thought I should be prosecuted but I imagine most people reading it in the newspaper would.

Anyway, im not trying to argue as much as I'm trying to pick your brain since I know you enjoy the legal side of things and are well versed on them.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:44 AM
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While it is preventable nobody thinks it will happen to them and there in lies the problem. If you don't think something could ever happen to you then you don't take steps to prevent it. Then a perfect storm erupts, disaster strikes and most people respond to it by saying "how could you forget your child? I would never forget my child. Why didn't you put the diaper bag in the front seat/put one of your shoes in the back seat/remember your child?" Even though most don't do those things themselves because like the parent who forgot their child they also think it could never happen to them. It's a vicious cycle that will never end until parents realize that no matter how much you love your child, how responsible you are, etc. you can end up in the same situation.

Daycare providers have forgotten children in daycare vans. Providers who are used to counting children. Then a child falls asleep hunkered down in the seat, doesn't get off at their school stop and the provider doesn't remember this because he/she was scanning traffic to make sure the ones getting off at the stop were safe. Then she pulls up to the daycare and doesn't even think to check because in their mind this day is like every other day and all the children were dropped off. Of course most daycares have systems in place these days to prevent this from happening but it still happens. There is little argument to be had that the provider did it intentionally.

Of course there is some negligence involved but it's not intentional. So I guess I don't know what these parents should be charged with. Negligent homicide? I don't know I guess I think of jail as a place we should put people who are a danger to society not a place we should people were just mad at for a horrible accident. And what makes people more angry than the death of an innocent child? I guess one could argue that a person speeding through a school zone and hitting a child is also an accident but they also chose to speed whereas a parent who leaves a child in a car didn't choose anything it was them not doing something that caused the tradgedy. If a parent forgets to latch the baby gate at the stairs and the child falls and dies do we charge them? There are just so many instances accidents that can happen when it comes to taking care of a child that could then be prosecuted.

No one I know would ever believe i forgot my infant in the car because I'm hyper-vigilant about their safety. I make lists for everything. My children are the center of my world. I'm always counting heads and scanning for safety problems even when I don't need to but I did forget due to the perfect storm of exhaustion due to a newborn, unfamiliar circumstances and overloaded circuits. I was just lucky. Who knows if I would have forgotten if my husband wasn't there to get my daughter out and I had been responsible for all of the children? I don't. I don't know why I didn't remember that one time and can only chalk it up to a perfect storm of events. If something had happened no one witnessing the incident would have thought I should be prosecuted but I imagine most people reading it in the newspaper would.

Anyway, im not trying to argue as much as I'm trying to pick your brain since I know you enjoy the legal side of things and are well versed on them.
Once again, I completely agree. I think the mentality that it could never happen to me is what keeps the stigma attached and is why no one takes means to prevent it. I mentioned the backseat camera and it would be a small addition to a car that may help prevent the "out of sight, out of mind" situations. Small things can make a big impact.

As for conscious parenting, I agree 100% that when it comes to preventing any type of injury, it is the best means of defense. I think we all need to be more conscious in our lives in general, but parents specifically need to recognize that putting their brains on auto pilot when it comes to their kids is not safe.
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Old 10-26-2016, 10:40 AM
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In the beginning I use to call when a parent didn't show up to see if they were coming and would get sent to voicemail and didn't get any response to my texts until it was convenient for them (it was mainly one family) so I stopped. My considerate families always keeps me posted on what's going on with a simple text. I go on with my day and if for some reason I'm gone when they show up it's not my problem. I personally don't want the responsibility on what goes on when I'm not present. I already have too much going on throughout the day.
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Old 10-26-2016, 11:33 AM
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Yesterday when the detective was on the stand he was asked if Justin Ross Harris had a history of abuse. His reply was -other than the death of his son?
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I don't need a definition of a history of abuse? I think he's just pointing out that leaving a child in a car is abuse/neglect and the one time it happened resulted in death. One time is all it takes. Snide comment or not, he made his point.


I started reading the trial transcripts. I do not think the prosecution will be capable of proving intent, the evidence is all circumstantial at this point. Obviously the responding officers thought he was guilty, as they charged him and the DA thought they could make a case.

The guy was an obvious tool who didn't want marriage or a family, though.

The reason I say parents SHOULD be charged is to make it clear- this type of negligence IS criminal.
Quote:
Negligent homicide is a much lower intent crime and is used as a charge when one person causes the death of another through criminal negligence. The charge does not involve premeditation, but focuses on what the defendant should have known and the risks associated with what he did know.
Parents are aware of these risks. It is up to the parent to put a plan in place to prevent this from happening. The same way the parent is responsible for child proofing, or not leaving the baby in the bathtub.

I cannot imagine the pain these parents feel IF it was truly an accident BUT, they ARE guilty based on the law. Their negligence directly caused the death of a child. IF parents start being held responsible, maybe we would see fewer of these cases.
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Old 10-26-2016, 11:36 AM
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Also, locally we are seeing people prosecuted for animal cruelty/animal abuse for leaving animals in parked cars (running with the AC on) it's against the law. One woman just received jail time when her dog died outside of a grocery store. The news said that animal owners are being more proactive to prevent breaking the law and interviewed a few people who said that they had changed their habits to obey this law after seeing people charged.

As if a beloved pet (OR CHILD) isn't deterrent enough.
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Old 10-26-2016, 11:57 AM
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I do send a text past 40 minutes, but most times I don't have to, the parents let me know.

Where are the transcripts or video of the trial? Can you post a link? Didn't this guy look up how long you have to be in a car before you pass away on his computer?
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Old 10-26-2016, 11:59 AM
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Leaving kids in car is criminal
By Kyle Martin
Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 7, 2011

"It's a clear-cut criminal offense to leave children unsupervised in a car, but defining the degree of a caregiver's culpability is usually made on a case-by-base basis.

Georgia law has several definitions for child cruelty. The difference between first- and second-degree cruelty to children is whether the crime was done "maliciously" or the result of "criminal negligence."

When a child dies -- as occurred May 26 with a 4-month-old girl in Atlanta who was left alone for five hours -- homicide charges usually result.

If a child is saved but suffers serious injury, a caregiver faces a charge of cruelty to children, said Capt. Steve Morris, of the Columbia County Sheriff's Office.

What if the children are left alone for 15 minutes in an air-conditioned car?

The children aren't really suffering, but as Capt. Scott Gay, of the Richmond County Sheriff's Office, points out, there's still the chance something could happen. He gives the scenario of a 4-year-old unbuckling and putting the car into gear.

"You will be arrested," he said of people who leave children in the car.

In that instance, the typical charge is deprivation of a minor. Michelle Stevens was arrested on that charge two weeks ago after, deputies say, she left her children, ages 7, 5 and 3, unattended in her Chevrolet Blazer while she shopped at Target.

The vehicle was running and the oldest child was in the driver's seat, according to a Richmond County sheriff's report. Stevens told a deputy she had been in the store for about 15 minutes, the report says.

Solicitor General Charles Evans said an alternative charge in that instance is reckless conduct, but each case is judged on its individual facts, he said.

"Not every case comes with similar facts," Evans said.

There are exceptions. Gay said a parent won't be arrested for running into a gas station to pay for fuel while the children are in the car. Still, car thieves have been known to steal cars with children strapped in the back.

"You can't be too cautious nowadays," Gay said."
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  #70  
Old 10-26-2016, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo View Post
I do send a text past 40 minutes, but most times I don't have to, the parents let me know.

Where are the transcripts or video of the trial? Can you post a link? Didn't this guy look up how long you have to be in a car before you pass away on his computer?
I watch live here:
http://www.wsbtv.com/ross-harris-trial

and here you can see a minute to minute breakdown-I think this link is day 14 but to the left you can see where you can click on different days.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/ross-harri...rial/460765362
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  #71  
Old 10-26-2016, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by daycarediva View Post

Parents are aware of these risks. It is up to the parent to put a plan in place to prevent this from happening. The same way the parent is responsible for child proofing, or not leaving the baby in the bathtub.

I cannot imagine the pain these parents feel IF it was truly an accident BUT, they ARE guilty based on the law. Their negligence directly caused the death of a child. IF parents start being held responsible, maybe we would see fewer of these cases.
This is the problem in my opinion. Yes most parents are aware of the risk of leaving a child in a car on a hot day but they never think they would do it. They never think they'd forget their child so they see no reason to have a plan in place. In their mind "I would never forget my child" is the plan. Every single message board is filled with comments from these people and the people that actually have a plan in place is the minority.
These same parents use car seats for safety and the law. I know I've read about at least one who had the entire house professionally baby proofed before the baby was even born. They know not to leave a child in the bath tub just like they know not to leave them in a hot car so they don't, except that one time they are running on autopilot and accidentally do.
I know several of the stories include the parent going to pick the child up from daycare and that's when they find out the child has been in the car all day.
It interesting that prosecution has helped with pets being left in cars but I can't stand behind sending a grieving parent to jail for a horrible accident and charging them with reckless homicide or involuntary manslaughter. I don't know what the answer to the problem is except a required device on car seats or in cars.
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  #72  
Old 10-26-2016, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
This case is very different. That. Is. All.
I agree.

Normally it's a fatal mistake, and awful mistake, the saddest mistake I could ever comprehend. This is a very good read (also very old but still applicable)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...a52_story.html
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  #73  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:53 AM
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I feel that if a third party (daycare provider, bus company, aunt/uncle...) would be charged with a crime, then the parents should also be charged. Is it a sad, tragic accident? Yes. (well, maybe not in this particular case, we shall see...) But it is a sad, tragic accident regardless of who the perpetrator is. So if I, as a daycare provider, would be charged, then the parents should be charged for doing exactly the same thing. The same for SIDS deaths, if they are going to investigate the daycare provider, and charge them when safe sleep practices weren't adhered to, then they better investigate and charge the parents, too! A crime shouldn't be dependent on who the caregiver is, it is either a crime or not.
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  #74  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:02 AM
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The same for SIDS deaths, if they are going to investigate the daycare provider, and charge them when safe sleep practices weren't adhered to, then they better investigate and charge the parents, too! A crime shouldn't be dependent on who the caregiver is, it is either a crime or not.
As a SIDS mom, I can tell you, they do. Parents are investigated and often treated as guilty/suspects until proven innocent. I welcomed it because I needed to know it was not from something I did wrong. I was a young mother. I needed to know more than they did. I still need to know... It seems I never will for sure. It still causes me nightmares. SIDS is the the literal statement of "We don't know."

I believe that as a provider there is an added responsibility in that I accept payment and represent myself as a trained professional. As such I accept a greater responsibility.

SIDS is VERY different from hot car deaths or positional asphyxia.
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Old 10-28-2016, 09:06 AM
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As a SIDS mom, I can tell you, they do. Parents are investigated and often treated as guilty/suspects until proven innocent. I welcomed it because I needed to know it was not from something I did wrong. I was a young mother. I needed to know more than they did. I still need to know... It seems I never will for sure. It still causes me nightmares. SIDS is the the literal statement of "We don't know."

I believe that as a provider there is an added responsibility in that I accept payment and represent myself as a trained professional. As such I accept a greater responsibility.

SIDS is VERY different from hot car deaths or positional asphyxia.
You're absolutely correct. You can also follow every safe sleep recommendation and have none of the risk factors ands baby can still die of SIDS.
I went to a SIDS support group once put on by a hospital and the one fact I was told that helped even a little bit was that babies have died of SIDS while in hospitals and in one case someone shared the baby was being held by a doctor at the time. I'm sorry for your loss, I know that pain and fear never goes away.
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  #76  
Old 10-28-2016, 10:06 AM
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When my son was admitted to the hospital, I can tell you that the police were involved. We were cleared of all culpability but yes we were investigated. I had nothing to hide and I have no idea how the officer even comprehended my statement, but I understood they had a job to do.
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  #77  
Old 10-28-2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
As a SIDS mom, I can tell you, they do. Parents are investigated and often treated as guilty/suspects until proven innocent. I welcomed it because I needed to know it was not from something I did wrong. I was a young mother. I needed to know more than they did. I still need to know... It seems I never will for sure. It still causes me nightmares. SIDS is the the literal statement of "We don't know."

I believe that as a provider there is an added responsibility in that I accept payment and represent myself as a trained professional. As such I accept a greater responsibility.

SIDS is VERY different from hot car deaths or positional asphyxia.
we almost lost DS, it's a long story but I still have nightmares about his little face.

I completely agree with the bolded.

Maybe some parenting videos in addition to safe sleep and SBS at the hospital- common child hood injuries/how to child proof, hot car deaths and how to prevent and 'it couldn't happen to me' story with a parent it DID happen to.
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  #78  
Old 10-28-2016, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by daycarediva View Post
Also, locally we are seeing people prosecuted for animal cruelty/animal abuse for leaving animals in parked cars (running with the AC on) it's against the law. One woman just received jail time when her dog died outside of a grocery store. The news said that animal owners are being more proactive to prevent breaking the law and interviewed a few people who said that they had changed their habits to obey this law after seeing people charged.

As if a beloved pet (OR CHILD) isn't deterrent enough.
I will never understand why people cannot leave their pets at home! At least you can leave them home alone legally. The only time my dog is in the car is when we are going camping, we are taking him to someones house while we are on vacation or he is going to vet. Otherwise he is at home where he is safe. I have even seen people driving with their pets in their laps
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  #79  
Old 10-28-2016, 10:41 AM
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I will never understand why people cannot leave their pets at home! At least you can leave them home alone legally. The only time my dog is in the car is when we are going camping, we are taking him to someones house while we are on vacation or he is going to vet. Otherwise he is at home where he is safe. I have even seen people driving with their pets in their laps

We take our dog everywhere we can with us. He goes to relatives, hiking, etc. BUT I never take him anywhere where he must be left in the car, even for a minute.
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  #80  
Old 10-28-2016, 11:56 AM
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I will never understand why people cannot leave their pets at home! At least you can leave them home alone legally. The only time my dog is in the car is when we are going camping, we are taking him to someones house while we are on vacation or he is going to vet. Otherwise he is at home where he is safe. I have even seen people driving with their pets in their laps
I don't understand how a dog can be in the front seat. The airbag goes off, that dog is toast.
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  #81  
Old 10-31-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
As a SIDS mom, I can tell you, they do. Parents are investigated and often treated as guilty/suspects until proven innocent. I welcomed it because I needed to know it was not from something I did wrong. I was a young mother. I needed to know more than they did. I still need to know... It seems I never will for sure. It still causes me nightmares. SIDS is the the literal statement of "We don't know."

I believe that as a provider there is an added responsibility in that I accept payment and represent myself as a trained professional. As such I accept a greater responsibility.

SIDS is VERY different from hot car deaths or positional asphyxia.
First, I am very, very sorry for your loss, losing a child is the worst thing a parent can go through. *hugs*

Second, I should have said SUID, not SIDS. And I agree that is is VERY different than a hot car death, but my original statement stands that it is either a crime or it is not. Who the caregiver is at the time should not determine whether or not it is a crime.

As a daycare professional, I understand that I take on increased liability---financial liability. Tried in civil court. That is why I have liability insurance. But I do not, and will not, accept that I have increased CRIMINAL liability, tried in criminal court and including a prison sentence, due to my profession. A crime is a crime no matter who commits it. If it is a tragic accident for one, garnering no criminal charges, then it is a tragic accident for all. So if a parent puts their child to sleep in a swing, they should face the same scrutiny I would.
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  #82  
Old 10-31-2016, 02:36 PM
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As I get older, the trend is that parents take less and less responsibility for their own children.

So some think that daycare providers should call if a child hasn't arrived to daycare by a certain time??

So when do I start calling parents at the end of the day to make sure they have changed their baby's diaper?

When do I call to make sure the child has had dinner?

What time should I call to make sure the child has been put to bed???

PARENTS are responsible for their OWN kids. Being in a car doesn't magically change that.

I will NEVER agree to any sort of responsibility for a child who is not in my actual physical care.
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Old 11-02-2016, 09:33 AM
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The public schools here do not call if a child is absent either.
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  #84  
Old 11-14-2016, 03:43 PM
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He was found guilty of both malice and felony murder

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...cid=spartanntp
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:39 AM
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I still have such a hard time comprehending that someone would intentionally do this. I hope he IS guilty.
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  #86  
Old 11-15-2016, 11:08 AM
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He was found guilty of both malice and felony murder

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...cid=spartanntp
I think he was guilty as well. I have been reading the transcripts.
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Old 11-15-2016, 11:13 AM
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I think he was guilty as well. I have been reading the transcripts.
I have, too, and sometimes I had a feeling that he was innocent. I did not, however, see the entire trial and missed A LOT of things. I have to presume there was overwhelming evidence that he was guilty.
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