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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Does Anyone Have Experience With A Dck Who May Have Seizures? Questions/Rant..
melilley 06:43 AM 09-02-2014
I have a 2 yo dcb who was in the hospital for 3 days last week because he had a few seizures in one day. He's never had one before this. He now has medicine called Diastat just in case he has one here and I have to put it in his bottom with a syringe. I am really not comfortable with this. Has anyone had any experience taking care of a child that may have a seizure at your house? I am really nervous that he will have one here. How big of a deal is this? And dcm also said that they said to let dcb sleep as much as he wants, that's kind of hard here. Plus, what if he has a seizure in his sleep?! Also, dcb is always staring into space and dcm said that he may be having Grand mal seizures when he does this, but from my research, you shake violently during these types (is that right?) and he doesn't do that (this particular dcm likes to self diagnose her children and does it often). Dcb has to to to a children's hospital to get more testing done, but this makes me so nervous. I have a few light days until I fill a spot, but on most days I will have 4-5 other young children here with just myself here.

Here's my rant about this situation: I'm a little concerned because yesterday, dcm called me in the afternoon to explain to me what the doctor's said and to explain what to do with the medicine. As she's talking to me, she's also talking to someone in the background, which she always does when she calls me. Then while she's explaining things, she rushes and tells me she has to go because they have to rehome their dog and they are at the prospective "parents'" house. I asked her a question and she frantically answered and then let me go. Apparently she couldn't take 5 more minutes to talk about her child's health! I was in shock! Don't you think that your child's health is more important than a dog? I just don't get some parents.

I did talk to dcd this morning and he explained a little more, but I'm still super nervous. Should I be?
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EntropyControlSpecialist 06:50 AM 09-02-2014
I would be really, really nervous as well. Hopefully someone has some good advice.
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DaveA 07:13 AM 09-02-2014
Never had a child in my care with a seizure disorder, so no help there. If I remember right, not all Grand Mal seizures involve trashing/ muscle contractions. Some can be appear to be "zoning out" or (for lack of a better term) "lights are on but no one's home". There may be a Epilepsy/ Seizure disorder group in your area- check with them. Some of them offer resources for schools/ providers/ families and could give you some information.

I would schedule a conference with the parents ASAP. Tell them that you want to make sure you have the procedures right, especially since you are dealing with an injectable med. Make sure you get it all down in writing so there isn't confusion between the 2 of you as to what is expected of you.

Good luck
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nannyde 07:14 AM 09-02-2014
I can't keep children with seizures unless they come with an aide. They have to have an adult with their eyes in them every second.
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NeedaVaca 07:20 AM 09-02-2014
http://diastat.com/hcps/about/dosing-administration

I would be concerned too!

The following bothers me because you don't have the experience in differentiating different types of seizures nor have you been properly instructed on how to give the meds:

DIASTAT AcuDial should only be administered by caregivers who, in the opinion of the prescribing physician:

Can distinguish between a cluster of seizures and the patient's ordinary seizure pattern
Have been instructed on how to administer DIASTAT AcuDial and judged competent to do so
Understand explicitly which seizures may or may not be treated with DIASTAT AcuDial
Are able to monitor clinical response and recognize when the response mandates immediate professional medical evaluation.
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Blackcat31 07:35 AM 09-02-2014
I would need training AND a written plan of action from the Doctor before I'd provide care for the child.

I would seriously consider letting him go if you are concerned about his well being in your care. Also because he requires the space and ability to sleep as long and whenever he wants which you said will not work with your program.

That^^^ would be enough for me to bow out.
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melilley 08:07 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
http://diastat.com/hcps/about/dosing-administration

I would be concerned too!

The following bothers me because you don't have the experience in differentiating different types of seizures nor have you been properly instructed on how to give the meds:

DIASTAT AcuDial should only be administered by caregivers who, in the opinion of the prescribing physician:

Can distinguish between a cluster of seizures and the patient's ordinary seizure pattern
Have been instructed on how to administer DIASTAT AcuDial and judged competent to do so
Understand explicitly which seizures may or may not be treated with DIASTAT AcuDial
Are able to monitor clinical response and recognize when the response mandates immediate professional medical evaluation.
I just read this in the medication brochure. I am definitely contacting dcm, I'm so not comfortable.
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melilley 08:08 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I would need training AND a written plan of action from the Doctor before I'd provide care for the child.

I would seriously consider letting him go if you are concerned about his well being in your care. Also because he requires the space and ability to sleep as long and whenever he wants which you said will not work with your program.

That^^^ would be enough for me to bow out.
I'm thinking the same thing. I've been anxious all morning and am contacting dcm.
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melilley 08:14 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I would need training AND a written plan of action from the Doctor before I'd provide care for the child.

I would seriously consider letting him go if you are concerned about his well being in your care. Also because he requires the space and ability to sleep as long and whenever he wants which you said will not work with your program.

That^^^ would be enough for me to bow out.
This isn't considered discrimination if I term because of a medical condition is it?
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KiddieCahoots 08:20 AM 09-02-2014
Agree with the advice given.
I took a training on how to administer this medication about 6 months ago.
The instructor was a registered nurse and we were told that we could not administer this type of medication without prior training.

And just for the record, when you administer this medication, the child usually looses all control of bowl function.
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melilley 08:24 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
Agree with the advice given.
I took a training on how to administer this medication about 6 months ago.
The instructor was a registered nurse and we were told that we could not administer this type of medication without prior training.
I just texted her to call me when she gets a chance. I think I'm going to term. My sis is a RN and could probably train me, but I'm still not comfortable. Plus, it's just me here with other children too. I don't know what I would do with them if he did have one here.
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melilley 08:25 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:

And just for the record, when you administer this medication, the child usually looses all control of bowl function.
Another reason I wouldn't be able to do this when I'm here by myself!
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melilley 08:26 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I can't keep children with seizures unless they come with an aide. They have to have an adult with their eyes in them every second.
This is my thinking. He has never had one before this, but you never know when he will again.
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melilley 08:27 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by DaveArmour:
Never had a child in my care with a seizure disorder, so no help there. If I remember right, not all Grand Mal seizures involve trashing/ muscle contractions. Some can be appear to be "zoning out" or (for lack of a better term) "lights are on but no one's home". There may be a Epilepsy/ Seizure disorder group in your area- check with them. Some of them offer resources for schools/ providers/ families and could give you some information.

I would schedule a conference with the parents ASAP. Tell them that you want to make sure you have the procedures right, especially since you are dealing with an injectable med. Make sure you get it all down in writing so there isn't confusion between the 2 of you as to what is expected of you.

Good luck
Thank you DaveArmour! I'm definitely going to talk to them and probably term. I feel bad, but it's just me here and too much to handle if he does have one here!
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KiddieCahoots 08:33 AM 09-02-2014
Oops! That was suppose to be bowel

Melilley, you probably already thought of this, if you are thinking on the lines of terming, then not having the training would give you the legit reason to term. kwim.
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melilley 08:34 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
Oops! That was suppose to be bowel

Melilley, you probably already thought of this, if you are thinking on the lines of terming, then not having the training would give you the legit reason to term. kwim.

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melilley 08:36 AM 09-02-2014
Thanks everyone!
In my heart, I know what I need to do.
Dh thinks I should wait to term until I find a replacement (I just lost one f/t to p/t and one p/t child), but to me, it's too much of a liability to have him here if I can't properly take care of dcb.
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NightOwl 08:42 AM 09-02-2014
Slow down!! Seizures are NOT a big deal! If he has one, just move the other children away from him and let it run its course. I have lots of experience with seizures in children and my brother is epileptic also.

Once it's over, he'll be extremely tired and kind of disoriented, but that's basically all unless he hurts himself by bumping into a table or something while seizing.

Yes, you could be cited for discrimination for a medical condition.

The only thing I would take issue with is the medication and how it's administered. I would down right refuse. There are other options for medication. Most of them are a preventative type thing so once they figure out his dosage (taken at home) you likely won't see seizures anymore!

I would never term/deny enrollment for epilepsy. It's very easy to manage. Just give them a little time to work out the kinks, get the tests, get established in a med.

Grand mals are violent, shaking, jerking seizures. Not pretty to see. They look possessed.

Petit grand mals are much less physical. It's a visible seizure, but not as violent.

Absence seizures are the kind where they "blank out" and stare off into space. There won't be any sleepiness with these. The child may not even realize anything happened.
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NightOwl 08:45 AM 09-02-2014
Also, I'd be happy to help you/walk you through it, if you decide to keep him. I could send you my number, so you could call me when it happens.
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NeedaVaca 09:01 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Slow down!! Seizures are NOT a big deal! If he has one, just move the other children away from him and let it run its course. I have lots of experience with seizures in children and my brother is epileptic also.

Once it's over, he'll be extremely tired and kind of disoriented, but that's basically all unless he hurts himself by bumping into a table or something while seizing.

Yes, you could be cited for discrimination for a medical condition.

The only thing I would take issue with is the medication and how it's administered. I would down right refuse. There are other options for medication. Most of them are a preventative type thing so once they figure out his dosage (taken at home) you likely won't see seizures anymore!

I would never term/deny enrollment for epilepsy. It's very easy to manage. Just give them a little time to work out the kinks, get the tests, get established in a med.

Grand mals are violent, shaking, jerking seizures. Not pretty to see. They look possessed.

Petit grand mals are much less physical. It's a visible seizure, but not as violent.

Absence seizures are the kind where they "blank out" and stare off into space. There won't be any sleepiness with these. The child may not even realize anything happened.
I disagree with this no big deal attitude...seizures CAN be serious! This is directly from epilepsy.com and the same guideline/descriptions can be found on many websites:

Most people donít understand how serious seizures can be. They either think that seizures are not a problem or that everyone may die from them. The truth lies somewhere in between. The types of problems people may have range from injuries, the effect of repeated seizures on the brain, seizure emergencies, and death.

This is a scary topic to read and talk about. But itís important to know the facts so you know what questions to ask your doctor and health care team. Also, knowing your risks, or those of your loved ones, may help you learn what to do to lessen these risks!
What type of injuries can occur?

Some seizures rarely cause problems for people, but overall, the chance of injury is higher for people with uncontrolled seizures. The type of injuries a person may get depends on the type of seizure, how long the seizure lasts, where the seizure occurs, and if it develops into an emergency.

Some common injuries may include:

Bruises
Cuts
Burns
Falls

More serious problems, such as broken bones, concussions, head injury with bleeding into the brain, or breathing problems usually are seen in people who have generalized seizures with falls, long seizures or repeated or clusters of seizures.
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NightOwl 09:16 AM 09-02-2014
This is true for "uncontrolled" epilepsy, meaning the person doesn't take any preventative meds. My brother has gone up to 5 years without a seizure because his meds work well. I also had an employee with seizures and two children enrolled (at different times) with seizures. It's totally manageable. When a child had a seizure, we always called for pick up. If they have one, they're likely to have more that day. And they're usually very sleepy, so they needed to go home and go to bed.
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melilley 09:19 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Slow down!! Seizures are NOT a big deal! If he has one, just move the other children away from him and let it run its course. I have lots of experience with seizures in children and my brother is epileptic also.

Once it's over, he'll be extremely tired and kind of disoriented, but that's basically all unless he hurts himself by bumping into a table or something while seizing.

Yes, you could be cited for discrimination for a medical condition.

The only thing I would take issue with is the medication and how it's administered. I would down right refuse. There are other options for medication. Most of them are a preventative type thing so once they figure out his dosage (taken at home) you likely won't see seizures anymore!

I would never term/deny enrollment for epilepsy. It's very easy to manage. Just give them a little time to work out the kinks, get the tests, get established in a med.

Grand mals are violent, shaking, jerking seizures. Not pretty to see. They look possessed.

Petit grand mals are much less physical. It's a visible seizure, but not as violent.

Absence seizures are the kind where they "blank out" and stare off into space. There won't be any sleepiness with these. The child may not even realize anything happened.
Dcb is on preventative meds, but I'm still not comfortable. I have 4 to 5 other children here that are 2 and under and it would be very hard for me to be able to take care of Dcb when he is having a seizure, plus administer meds, and clean up if he were to have a bm. What if we are on a walk or I'm cooking or changing a diaper or doing whatever. And the brochure also says that you need to be trained in determining the type of seizure before giving it. I'm just not comfortable, especially being here by myself.

Thank you for the offer of help though!
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Blackcat31 09:22 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
This isn't considered discrimination if I term because of a medical condition is it?
Don't term because of the seizure possibility.

Term because you can't provide the environment he needs (to be able to sleep at will) and because you don't have the extra eyes/hands to provide the one to one care/supervision he needs.

Do NOT say it's because of the seizures.

Make sense?
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Laurel 09:24 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I would need training AND a written plan of action from the Doctor before I'd provide care for the child.

I would seriously consider letting him go if you are concerned about his well being in your care. Also because he requires the space and ability to sleep as long and whenever he wants which you said will not work with your program.

That^^^ would be enough for me to bow out.


My oldest son had seizures...both grand mal and psychomotor. He just turned 40 so this was a long time ago. His was controlled by medication by mouth and then he outgrew them. I've never heard of the treatment you are suggesting. I would not be up for that.

Seizures in themselves are nothing to be afraid of but I wouldn't want to deal with them in a home childcare situation. A grand mal usually looks like twitching and possibly some flailing and eyes rolling. They are kind of alarming when you first see one but all I did was to hold my son gently or get him on the sofa and let it happen. You just have to make sure he doesn't injure himself by falling as he can't control his body. When it is over, they are disoriented and you just hug and talk gently to them. But with several other children there, I think this would be too hard.

A psychomotor seizure isn't harmful but very stressful. My son would crouch in a corner literally screaming and crying. When I would approach him he would look like he didn't know me and be terrified of me approaching him so I couldn't. That was heart wrenching. Luckily he only had a few of those.

I don't think you would be in trouble if you termed because you could rightfully claim that you don't have the capacity (not enough employees) to take care of him and the other children when he was having one of these. Also, you don't have the training. You also can't let him sleep as much as he wants and still be able to watch the other children. How could you go outside to play, or take them for a walk, etc.?

Laurel
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Blackcat31 09:25 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I disagree with this no big deal attitude...seizures CAN be serious! This is directly from epilepsy.com and the same guideline/descriptions can be found on many websites:

Most people donít understand how serious seizures can be. They either think that seizures are not a problem or that everyone may die from them. The truth lies somewhere in between. The types of problems people may have range from injuries, the effect of repeated seizures on the brain, seizure emergencies, and death.

This is a scary topic to read and talk about. But itís important to know the facts so you know what questions to ask your doctor and health care team. Also, knowing your risks, or those of your loved ones, may help you learn what to do to lessen these risks!
What type of injuries can occur?

Some seizures rarely cause problems for people, but overall, the chance of injury is higher for people with uncontrolled seizures. The type of injuries a person may get depends on the type of seizure, how long the seizure lasts, where the seizure occurs, and if it develops into an emergency.

Some common injuries may include:

Bruises
Cuts
Burns
Falls

More serious problems, such as broken bones, concussions, head injury with bleeding into the brain, or breathing problems usually are seen in people who have generalized seizures with falls, long seizures or repeated or clusters of seizures.
I also agree. Seizures CAN be a big deal. Even if they usually aren't. They CAN be and I for one do not want to be the ONLY provider on site with a GROUP of children when that ONE time it is a big deal happens.

I support OP's uneasiness as I would feel the same. I had an epileptic child in care who suffered from seizures. He was older and better equipped (as well as more experienced) in dealing with his condition compared to a 2 yr old but still not something I would be willing to do again.

Way too stressful and the care and supervision required can sometimes put other kids at risk. That is not a chance I am willing to take.
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NightOwl 09:27 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
Dcb is on preventative meds, but I'm still not comfortable. I have 4 to 5 other children here that are 2 and under and it would be very hard for me to be able to take care of Dcb when he is having a seizure, plus administer meds, and clean up if he were to have a bm. What if we are on a walk or I'm cooking or changing a diaper or doing whatever. And the brochure also says that you need to be trained in determining the type of seizure before giving it. I'm just not comfortable, especially being here by myself.

Thank you for the offer of help though!
I understand, but be super careful with how you proceed. I wouldn't want you to get into any legal trouble. But, depending on your state, you may be able to term without giving any reason at all or, if you can prove that this is beyond your abilities, you could term based on that.

In Alabama, it says we cannot refuse care for a child with disabilities unless it "places undue hardship" onto the center or home. Such as, needing extra staff (financial hardship), decline in quality care for the other children (professional hardship), the need for extensive training (financial and time availability hardship), etc.
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Laurel 09:27 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Don't term because of the seizure possibility.

Term because you can't provide the environment he needs (to be able to sleep at will) and because you don't have the extra eyes/hands to provide the one to one care/supervision he needs.

Do NOT say it's because of the seizures.

Make sense?


I think we were typing at the same time as my post was similar.
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melilley 09:30 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Laurel:


My oldest son had seizures...both grand mal and psychomotor. He just turned 40 so this was a long time ago. His was controlled by medication by mouth and then he outgrew them. I've never heard of the treatment you are suggesting. I would not be up for that.

Seizures in themselves are nothing to be afraid of but I wouldn't want to deal with them in a home childcare situation. A grand mal usually looks like twitching and possibly some flailing and eyes rolling. They are kind of alarming when you first see one but all I did was to hold my son gently or get him on the sofa and let it happen. You just have to make sure he doesn't injure himself by falling as he can't control his body. When it is over, they are disoriented and you just hug and talk gently to them. But with several other children there, I think this would be too hard.

A psychomotor seizure isn't harmful but very stressful. My son would crouch in a corner literally screaming and crying. When I would approach him he would look like he didn't know me and be terrified of me approaching him so I couldn't. That was heart wrenching. Luckily he only had a few of those.

I don't think you would be in trouble if you termed because you could rightfully claim that you don't have the capacity (not enough employees) to take care of him and the other children when he was having one of these. Also, you don't have the training. You also can't let him sleep as much as he wants and still be able to watch the other children. How could you go outside to play, or take them for a walk, etc.?

Laurel
Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry you and your son went through that.
I guess I'm not really afraid if he physically has one here, I just worry about the other children, especially since all but one are 2.5 and under.
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MyAngels 09:34 AM 09-02-2014
I would be very uneasy with this, especially because the seizures happened in a cluster. I knew a family once whose child had a series of seizures and the child ended up with damage to their brain because of it. Seizures are not something to be taken lightly in a group care situation.
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melilley 09:36 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Don't term because of the seizure possibility.

Term because you can't provide the environment he needs (to be able to sleep at will) and because you don't have the extra eyes/hands to provide the one to one care/supervision he needs.

Do NOT say it's because of the seizures.

Make sense?
Makes perfect sense!
Thank you, now I have a clear idea of what to say without discriminating.
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KidGrind 09:53 AM 09-02-2014
Seizures can be very serious. My daughterís high school friend died due to a seizure.

I would not provide care for the child because I do not have the capacity & staff to do meet the childís needs. My program is not the right fit for the child.
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nannyde 10:16 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I disagree with this no big deal attitude...seizures CAN be serious! This is directly from epilepsy.com and the same guideline/descriptions can be found on many websites:

Most people donít understand how serious seizures can be. They either think that seizures are not a problem or that everyone may die from them. The truth lies somewhere in between. The types of problems people may have range from injuries, the effect of repeated seizures on the brain, seizure emergencies, and death.

This is a scary topic to read and talk about. But itís important to know the facts so you know what questions to ask your doctor and health care team. Also, knowing your risks, or those of your loved ones, may help you learn what to do to lessen these risks!
What type of injuries can occur?

Some seizures rarely cause problems for people, but overall, the chance of injury is higher for people with uncontrolled seizures. The type of injuries a person may get depends on the type of seizure, how long the seizure lasts, where the seizure occurs, and if it develops into an emergency.

Some common injuries may include:

Bruises
Cuts
Burns
Falls

More serious problems, such as broken bones, concussions, head injury with bleeding into the brain, or breathing problems usually are seen in people who have generalized seizures with falls, long seizures or repeated or clusters of seizures.
Seizures can be life threatening. The one little girl who had seizures in my house.. first one at age four... has gone into cardiac arrest twice.
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nannyde 10:18 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Don't term because of the seizure possibility.

Term because you can't provide the environment he needs (to be able to sleep at will) and because you don't have the extra eyes/hands to provide the one to one care/supervision he needs.

Do NOT say it's because of the seizures.

Make sense?
I would absolutely keep a kid with a seizure disorder if they had an aide. I know I could manage the medication and the supervision. I just can't afford to offer the adult with the eyes on the child at all times.

If I could have a grant for that ... to get an extra adult.. I would be fine with it.
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KiddieCahoots 10:18 AM 09-02-2014
I may be mistaken, but if I remember correctly, the medication Diastat is specifically to stop the seizures from continuing. Seizures that are more extreme than a normal epileptic seizure.
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Play Care 10:23 AM 09-02-2014
Not in dc, but when I was a service coordinator for a day hab. When any of our folks had a seizure disorder they had a 1:1 staff. But our program was a traveling one, so that could have been why.

I could NOT administer meds. I am not certified. And after a morning like this one - full house, new infant, etc. I would not be comfortable as I know I couldn't have eyes on the child at all times. It would mean additional staff.
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Laurel 10:31 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry you and your son went through that.
I guess I'm not really afraid if he physically has one here, I just worry about the other children, especially since all but one are 2.5 and under.
Exactly, that would be my concern too.

The other children might be upset if they saw it also especially the psychomotor type.

If you had another person, it would be do-able. Nannyde had a good idea. Maybe a grant to hire another person if you wanted to go that route. That could be more problems though. What if he/she was unreliable and didn't show up one day?

My son started at 3 months old and he was our first so we were inexperienced parents anyway. He spent his first Christmas in the hospital. Then at age 12 months he had the psychomotor kind. Finally they got his meds straightened out and he didn't have any more problems. Then outgrew them. BUT I still think something is not quite right in his brain. He has always been forgetful although he says he always remembers things when they are truly important like things at work. He is fine with regular life and employment but his fiance was so relieved to hear that his 'forgetfulness' had a reason. We just have to keep reminding him of things. "Remember honey, you are taking us to the airport tomorrow." Tomorrow morning we call. "Are you up?"

Laurel
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Laurel 10:36 AM 09-02-2014
P.S. Oh and I forgot. This is kind of funny. He also forgets things that he needs. Once he was interested in going into law enforcement and we just all looked at each other rolling our eyes. He is used to us kidding him but I said jokingly "You couldn't be a cop. You'd be in hot pursuit and then realize you forgot to put your gun in your holster." Or you'd pull someone over to give them a speeding ticket and have to let them go cause you forgot to bring your ticket book."
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melilley 11:06 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Laurel:
Exactly, that would be my concern too.

The other children might be upset if they saw it also especially the psychomotor type.

If you had another person, it would be do-able. Nannyde had a good idea. Maybe a grant to hire another person if you wanted to go that route. That could be more problems though. What if he/she was unreliable and didn't show up one day?

My son started at 3 months old and he was our first so we were inexperienced parents anyway. He spent his first Christmas in the hospital. Then at age 12 months he had the psychomotor kind. Finally they got his meds straightened out and he didn't have any more problems. Then outgrew them. BUT I still think something is not quite right in his brain. He has always been forgetful although he says he always remembers things when they are truly important like things at work. He is fine with regular life and employment but his fiance was so relieved to hear that his 'forgetfulness' had a reason. We just have to keep reminding him of things. "Remember honey, you are taking us to the airport tomorrow." Tomorrow morning we call. "Are you up?"

Laurel
This dcb also had an MRI (I think that's what he had-mom wasn't sure what it was called) and it showed that there is a spot on his brain that didn't develop correctly. You can definitely tell something is different about him, but I can't quite put my finger on it. He stares off into space often and will just sit there for a couple of minutes. It sometimes takes him an hour to eat a meal, he had no problem eating fast before, but within the last 6 mo. or so, he seems to take forever, the staring has a lot to do with it. He's going to get more tests done at a children's hospital. That's another thing, mom said that he needs to see a neurologist because when he was in the hospital, the neurologist that was supposed to be there, was on vacation, but dcm said that she doesn't know when she's going to see one because of her work. That really bothers me. If he was my child and was in the hospital for 3 days and they suggested he see a neurologist, I would be immediately on the phone calling to get the first available appt.! He also only says "my mama, and no". He's getting evaluated for that too.
Sorry, probably too much info.
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satcook 11:14 AM 09-02-2014
My daughter has severe brain damage and has seizures as a result. I would not be comfortable with the diastat as you were given very little instructions with it. We would NEVER use her diastat for staring seizures, or petite mal. She will have episodes where she zones out and her eye twitches. If that goes on longer than 5 minutes then we have a pill that we give her down her g-tube. The diastat is to be used only for grand mal seizures that last longer than 3 minutes. Once it is given the seizure stops, but she sleeps for 5-6 hours after we give it.

I would be uncomfortable with your daycare kiddo as you have been given very little instruction.

Lori
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melilley 11:19 AM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by satcook:
My daughter has severe brain damage and has seizures as a result. I would not be comfortable with the diastat as you were given very little instructions with it. We would NEVER use her diastat for staring seizures, or petite mal. She will have episodes where she zones out and her eye twitches. If that goes on longer than 5 minutes then we have a pill that we give her down her g-tube. The diastat is to be used only for grand mal seizures that last longer than 3 minutes. Once it is given the seizure stops, but she sleeps for 5-6 hours after we give it.

I would be uncomfortable with your daycare kiddo as you have been given very little instruction.

Lori
Thank you, I'm sorry your dd has to go through that.
I am not comfortable at all. Plus, here licensing does allow us to administer meds, but my licensing consultant strongly advised against giving any meds at all.
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sahm1225 01:04 PM 09-02-2014
I have diastat for my dd2 1/2. It's kind of like an enema, and you only use it if the seizure lasts for more than 3 minutes and it's a grand mal seizure. She sees a neurologist and has never had a seizure but has some medical Conditions that make her more likely to have seizures. Her brain MRI also showed some abnormalities that are also linked to having seizures.

That being said - she's never had a seizure. In the event of a seizure, we were instructed to do the diastat AND call 911. (Not for the absent seizures, we were told to log the lenght of time and frequency they occurred).

If he's on seizure medication, shouldn't they be under control?

Unless the mom is willing to provide a specific medical plan AND I had the staff support in case of a seizure, I wouldnt be comfortable providing care.

The moms nonchalant attitude about it would be what would make me say 'no'.
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Blackcat31 01:09 PM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by sahm1225:
I have diastat for my dd2 1/2. It's kind of like an enema, and you only use it if the seizure lasts for more than 3 minutes and it's a grand mal seizure. She sees a neurologist and has never had a seizure but has some medical Conditions that make her more likely to have seizures. Her brain MRI also showed some abnormalities that are also linked to having seizures.

That being said - she's never had a seizure. In the event of a seizure, we were instructed to do the diastat AND call 911. (Not for the absent seizures, we were told to log the lenght of time and frequency they occurred).

If he's on seizure medication, shouldn't they be under control?
Unless the mom is willing to provide a specific medical plan AND I had the staff support in case of a seizure, I wouldnt be comfortable providing care.

The moms nonchalant attitude about it would be what would make me say 'no'.
From my understanding anti seizure medication is not an exact science and relying on the meds to stop seizures isn't always a sure thing.

I have a friend who has a 16 yr old DS who takes anti seizure meds. He is continuously being seen for med adjustments and fine tuning his dosages etc.

Seems as the child ages, matures and changes so does the affects of the meds.

Personally, I just wouldn't be able to relax and would feel as though the meds were giving a false sense of security in preventing a seizure.
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sahm1225 01:11 PM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
From my understanding anti seizure medication is not an exact science and relying on the meds to stop seizures isn't always a sure thing.

I have a friend who has a 16 yr old DS who takes anti seizure meds. He is continuously being seen for med adjustments and fine tuning his dosages etc.

Seems as the child ages, matures and changes so does the affects of the meds.

Personally, I just wouldn't be able to relax and would feel as though the meds were giving a false sense of security in preventing a seizure.
Agree 100%
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Mom of 4 logged out 02:01 PM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
I have a 2 yo dcb who was in the hospital for 3 days last week because he had a few seizures in one day. He's never had one before this. He now has medicine called Diastat just in case he has one here and I have to put it in his bottom with a syringe. I am really not comfortable with this. Has anyone had any experience taking care of a child that may have a seizure at your house? I am really nervous that he will have one here. How big of a deal is this? And dcm also said that they said to let dcb sleep as much as he wants, that's kind of hard here. Plus, what if he has a seizure in his sleep?! Also, dcb is always staring into space and dcm said that he may be having Grand mal seizures when he does this, but from my research, you shake violently during these types (is that right?) and he doesn't do that (this particular dcm likes to self diagnose her children and does it often). Dcb has to to to a children's hospital to get more testing done, but this makes me so nervous. I have a few light days until I fill a spot, but on most days I will have 4-5 other young children here with just myself here.

Here's my rant about this situation: I'm a little concerned because yesterday, dcm called me in the afternoon to explain to me what the doctor's said and to explain what to do with the medicine. As she's talking to me, she's also talking to someone in the background, which she always does when she calls me. Then while she's explaining things, she rushes and tells me she has to go because they have to rehome their dog and they are at the prospective "parents'" house. I asked her a question and she frantically answered and then let me go. Apparently she couldn't take 5 more minutes to talk about her child's health! I was in shock! Don't you think that your child's health is more important than a dog? I just don't get some parents.

I did talk to dcd this morning and he explained a little more, but I'm still super nervous. Should I be?
Staring into space is absence or "petit mal" seizures. It's usually harmless, and a lot of kiddos outgrow it. My son did. No worries.

As for the rest of it, I have to log in at work and can't respond but OMG!
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Laurel 02:33 PM 09-02-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
This dcb also had an MRI (I think that's what he had-mom wasn't sure what it was called) and it showed that there is a spot on his brain that didn't develop correctly. You can definitely tell something is different about him, but I can't quite put my finger on it. He stares off into space often and will just sit there for a couple of minutes. It sometimes takes him an hour to eat a meal, he had no problem eating fast before, but within the last 6 mo. or so, he seems to take forever, the staring has a lot to do with it. He's going to get more tests done at a children's hospital. That's another thing, mom said that he needs to see a neurologist because when he was in the hospital, the neurologist that was supposed to be there, was on vacation, but dcm said that she doesn't know when she's going to see one because of her work. That really bothers me. If he was my child and was in the hospital for 3 days and they suggested he see a neurologist, I would be immediately on the phone calling to get the first available appt.! He also only says "my mama, and no". He's getting evaluated for that too.
Sorry, probably too much info.
No, not too much information. That sheds a new light on things. He needs to see the neurologist asap. I would be uncomfortable with him at my house too.

I feel sorry for the little guy though.

Laurel
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Cradle2crayons 02:49 PM 09-02-2014
I don't necessarily have an issue caring for a child with a seizure disorder.

However, i would NOT allow him to return to care until he SEES a neurologist and you have a plan of action from the NEUROLOGIST (not just from mom).

I would also have mom sign a release with the neurologist and for me saying I can call the dr and ask questions if I need to. I would need to know what daily meds are prescribed for prevention. I would also need to be sure mom understands that most of those meds require sometimes twice weekly, weekly, then monthly blood work to determine their levels. If she can't seem to get off of work to take the child to a neurologist then how do I know she is going to take the child for the blood work every week?

I sure hope they educated mom to NOT give that rectal medication unless he has a grand mal lasting more than 3 minutes (some docs say 5 minutes). That medication is a LAST RESORT.

The seizures you are describing are NOT grand mal seizures.

So, to answer your question. I WOULD watch and have watched a child with a seizure disorder. But a lot of things come into play. As in the type, frequency, parent follow up etc before I would even THINK about accepting the child.

If I could NOT (whether that's due to ratio and my inability to watch the child closely enough, maybe I can't allow a child to sleep as much as they want, maybe the child simply requires more care than I can give) continue or agree to watch the child, as long as it's not JUST because of the medical condition... it's NOT DISCRIMINATION.

If I couldn't continue care I would give notice describing that I am unable to adequately provide the care the child needs while STILL providing care to the others in my home. End of Story.
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NightOwl 02:51 PM 09-02-2014
I feel sorry for them too. What's she going to do if no provider will care for him and they just got this very scary news... I'm sure their lives were just turned upside down.
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cheerfuldom 03:24 PM 09-02-2014
I dont keep children that have severe health needs as I cant manage their needs with a group of others in care.
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TwinKristi 03:39 PM 09-02-2014
How awful! Trust your instincts and if you don't feel you can provide the medical care he needs then by all means, term. Like BC said, not due to the medical condition, but because you don't have the means to provide special needs care in the event he has a seizure.
My mom has epilepsy and I had a medical situation where I had seizures myself and lemme tell ya... It's not "no big deal" to me! Anti seizure meds are NOT a guarantee that he's going to be seizure free. Especially in a growing child who is not only changing size rapidly (so changing doses frequently) and building a resistance to the med. Plus there are a TON of awful side-effects from these meds and it may take 2-3-4 meds til they find the right one, precautions for the med (problems regulating heat and cold, food interactions, etc.) Especially without an actual diagnosis as to why! He needs to see a Ped-Nuero ASAP. Diastat is basically Valium gel and the equivalent of what they do in the ER when someone is seizing. I would NOT feel comfortable having that as my solution. You would need to call 911, send child off alone in an ambulance to care for the other kids in your care, traumatic to you, traumatic to the other kids, traumatic to the child & parents... Report to licensing and have more possible drop-in visits.
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Ariana 05:39 AM 09-03-2014
I have cared for children with seizure disorders both at my home and in a centre. With the proper training it really is "no big deal". Get a written procedure plan from a DR, then get permission to call an ambulance if you feel you need to. Come up with a plan that feels comfortable for you. If you fon't feel comfortable administering the meds, tell mom she will need to come and do it or you will call an ambulance.
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NightOwl 05:48 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Ariana:
I have cared for children with seizure disorders both at my home and in a centre. With the proper training it really is "no big deal". Get a written procedure plan from a DR, then get permission to call an ambulance if you feel you need to. Come up with a plan that feels comfortable for you. If you fon't feel comfortable administering the meds, tell mom she will need to come and do it or you will call an ambulance.


I think if you're properly trained, it's totally manageable and it isn't nearly as scary as everyone thinks. Yes, they can be serious, but that normally only happens when the person is not medicated to control them. And it sounds like this mom is on top of it.
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NeedaVaca 05:58 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:


I think if you're properly trained, it's totally manageable and it isn't nearly as scary as everyone thinks. Yes, they can be serious, but that normally only happens when the person is not medicated to control them. And it sounds like this mom is on top of it.
Where do you get mom is on top of it? Sounds to me like she isn't sure how to fit in a neurologist appointment and her work. She called to discuss this with the provider and barely gave her 5 minutes, was rushed, her attention was divided and she was very concerned about her dog...If this were my child that is not how I would have approached this important conversation.
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craftymissbeth 06:13 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
I feel sorry for them too. What's she going to do if no provider will care for him and they just got this very scary news... I'm sure their lives were just turned upside down.
A nanny.

Also, my CPR instructor told us that when a person has a seizure (I'm not sure if it's ANY type of seizure... maybe just grand mal?) they do not breathe for the entire seizure. A seizure lasting several minutes could be devastating.
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Blackcat31 06:40 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
Where do you get mom is on top of it? Sounds to me like she isn't sure how to fit in a neurologist appointment and her work. She called to discuss this with the provider and barely gave her 5 minutes, was rushed, her attention was divided and she was very concerned about her dog...If this were my child that is not how I would have approached this important conversation.
I agree!! That was the deciding factor for me.

If I have ALL the info about a situation and feel as though the parent is taking the reins for THEIR child's situation, then I would more than likely be willing to try working with them but the second I read OP stating mom was talking to someone in the background WHILE discussing this issue and she makes an important call from a strangers house?

Also when OP said "I asked her a question and she frantically answered and then let me go. Apparently she couldn't take 5 more minutes to talk about her child's health!" that sealed the deal for me.


Mom's attitude about the whole thing and glossing over it, I would be out.
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TheGoodLife 07:22 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
And it sounds like this mom is on top of it.
Where does it some like the DCM is on top of things? She rushed through an explanation, was distracted and hurried, and stated she was supposed to see a neurologist but doesn't know how to fit it in her work schedule! I don't see any priority taken for this poor child and I would not feel comfortable. Calling an ambulance is not a fool-proof plan, and if something were to happen, the devastation would last forever, even if the provider is not "at-fault".

I'm sure the DCM is a good mom, but her nonchalance of the matter would make me hard-pressed to keep the child in my group care.
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melilley 07:29 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I agree!! That was the deciding factor for me.

If I have ALL the info about a situation and feel as though the parent is taking the reins for THEIR child's situation, then I would more than likely be willing to try working with them but the second I read OP stating mom was talking to someone in the background WHILE discussing this issue and she makes an important call from a strangers house?

Also when OP said "I asked her a question and she frantically answered and then let me go. Apparently she couldn't take 5 more minutes to talk about her child's health!" that sealed the deal for me.


Mom's attitude about the whole thing and glossing over it, I would be out.
These are my thoughts exactly BC and TheGoodLife.
Yesterday I gave a lot of thought about this. I texted mom as it's hard to talk here unless it's nap time and mom knows this so I sent her a text in the am asking her to call me either call me during her break ( she works at a preschool so she has break times around our nap time) or to come and talk and she did neither! I talked to dcd at p/u and told him my concerns and he said that he doesn't have any experience with it either and I have to talk to mom. I told him that I sent mom a text and he said that reception is not good where she works and maybe she didn't get it that's the excuse every time. Mom has not contacted me at all. Dcd also should have told her my concerns. I didn't have time to talk to him at drop off because everyone was arriving. It just really irks me that they don't seem to care. This is the same family that i have posted about with the child that comes in dirty, when mom picks up (which Is rare), she is on the phone most times, and
A few other things.
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Blackcat31 07:36 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
These are my thoughts exactly BC and TheGoodLife.
Yesterday I gave a lot of thought about this. I texted mom as it's hard to talk here unless it's nap time and mom knows this so I sent her a text in the am asking her to call me either call me during her break ( she works at a preschool so she has break times around our nap time) or to come and talk and she did neither! I talked to dcd at p/u and told him my concerns and he said that he doesn't have any experience with it either and I have to talk to mom. I told him that I sent mom a text and he said that reception is not good where she works and maybe she didn't get it that's the excuse every time. Mom has not contacted me at all. Dcd also should have told her my concerns. I didn't have time to talk to him at drop off because everyone was arriving. It just really irks me that they don't seem to care. This is the same family that i have posted about with the child that comes in dirty, when mom picks up (which Is rare), she is on the phone most times, and
A few other things.
Add that to the list too and there is NO way!

If mom cant be reached reliably then who is suppose to be called in case of emergency?!

Dad not relaying info to mom either.... no way.

I think you are smart to bow out now.
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NightOwl 07:47 AM 09-03-2014
The thing is, and I've seen it preached over and over on this forum, we don't know what the other conversation was about. It could've been very important. We don't know, not even op, the extent this mom is going to. We can assume, but that doesn't make it true. I'm sure she isn't giving op a play by play of every Dr visit, every phone discussion with Dr's, every Google search she does for more info.

I see complaints about the inadequacies of parents on the forum all the time, some of them from me. But I think this mom IS on top of it. She's still learning the ropes of what it means to have an epileptic child. She's going through some life altering changes right now and it is to be expected that she's overwhelmed. That's exactly what it sounds like to me, an overwhelmed mom.

The aspects that she doesn't have together? She'll get it together. She just needs some time to settle into this new reality. I do not believe this parent deserves a bashing because she's overwhelmed. She needs some sympathy, a kind ear, a shoulder. And a chance to gather herself and her thoughts.

I am in the extreme minority on this, which is odd to me because I have extensive experience with epilepsy and can offer tons of advice. But I guess the fear of the unknown trumps that (not directed at you op). I just hate to see these people termed over something they cannot help and are in the process of figuring out.

Yes, it's a challenge. Yes, it's new and unknown territory. But how else will we grow as providers if we don't challenge ourselves? If we don't move out of our comfort zones? We can't all have a perfectly healthy, well behaved group of little angels. That's desirable of course, but it's not reality. And aren't we supposed to be in a partnership with these parents? A partnership to raise happy, healthy, smart children? I find it very disheartening that so many posters would instantly jump ship over this. The meds can be negotiated. There was one bad phone call where mom was distracted. That deserves a termination??

Everyone is saying it is for the safety of the other children, but those children would not be in any danger. There is some thrashing about that occurs with grand mals, but if you quickly move the children out of the way, there's no danger. When it's over, simply call mom for pick up. But once the child is established on meds, it isn't likely he will seize at daycare.

For the ones who said what happens when you're out for a walk or at the store, etc. What do you think mom will do in those situations? She's not going to segregate her child from society because he MIGHT have a seizure. That would be ridiculous. Life goes on. You have to roll with the punches. So yes, for me, a person who did lots of research and made sure I was educated on the type of seizures and how to handle them if/when they come, it IS no big deal.
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NightOwl 07:53 AM 09-03-2014
So this termination ISN'T just about the seizures? You've had problems with this family in the past?
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Laurel 08:30 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
I feel sorry for them too. What's she going to do if no provider will care for him and they just got this very scary news... I'm sure their lives were just turned upside down.
She could hire a nanny. If I were a nanny I would do it. It isn't that I wouldn't do it but just not with other children to watch as well.

Laurel
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TheGoodLife 08:35 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
The thing is, and I've seen it preached over and over on this forum, we don't know what the other conversation was about. It could've been very important.

I see complaints about the inadequacies of parents on the forum all the time, some of them from me. But I think this mom IS on top of it. She's still learning the ropes of what it means to have an epileptic child. She's going through some life altering changes right now and it is to be expected that she's overwhelmed. That's exactly what it sounds like to me, an overwhelmed mom.

The aspects that she doesn't have together? She'll get it together. She just needs some time to settle into this new reality. I do not believe this parent deserves a bashing because she's overwhelmed.

There was one bad phone call where mom was distracted. That deserves termination? .
The DCM chose to call the provider from a busy situation (she was at a home to possibly regime a dog) to explains VERY serious medical condition and medication for a child. NOT acceptable! That is an important issue that requires full communication and discussion- not "oh, btw, little Johnny was at the hospital for 3 days and this is what needs to be done." A Giles health care is much more important than a "rehoming visit".
An overwhelmed mom would still need to give her child's medical condition priority. The OP stated she was confused and doesn't fully understand what is needed and what is happenening with the DCK. NOT OK to leave your child in the care of someone whom you have not given the opportunity to completely understand and feel comfortable with a serious medical situation!
And finally, to keep bringing the child after requests to discuss the situation? OP has nothing from the doctor (or correct me if I'm wrong about that), is not comfortable with what needs to be done, and is not being given proper communication- that would be an immediate term for me. The liability alone would scare me.
I respect that you are comfortable with that situation, but for others that don't have the training/experience/preparation/support to work with a child who has special medical needs- there should be no push to "challenge themselves" when it comes to a child's medical situation that COULD be life-or-death in a worse case scenario! You wouldn't want a doctor to "push themselves" in something new without an experienced person overseeing them- why would you want an inexperienced, untrained daycare provider alone with your child without having proper preparation?!
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TheGoodLife 08:37 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Laurel:
She could hire a nanny. If I were a nanny I would do it. It isn't that I wouldn't do it but just not with other children to watch as well.

Laurel
yes, a nanny or a provider that has a small group and the experience and comfort to provide proper care would be a perfect solution.
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Laurel 08:42 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
The thing is, and I've seen it preached over and over on this forum, we don't know what the other conversation was about. It could've been very important. We don't know, not even op, the extent this mom is going to. We can assume, but that doesn't make it true. I'm sure she isn't giving op a play by play of every Dr visit, every phone discussion with Dr's, every Google search she does for more info.

I see complaints about the inadequacies of parents on the forum all the time, some of them from me. But I think this mom IS on top of it. She's still learning the ropes of what it means to have an epileptic child. She's going through some life altering changes right now and it is to be expected that she's overwhelmed. That's exactly what it sounds like to me, an overwhelmed mom.

The aspects that she doesn't have together? She'll get it together. She just needs some time to settle into this new reality. I do not believe this parent deserves a bashing because she's overwhelmed. She needs some sympathy, a kind ear, a shoulder. And a chance to gather herself and her thoughts.

I am in the extreme minority on this, which is odd to me because I have extensive experience with epilepsy and can offer tons of advice. But I guess the fear of the unknown trumps that (not directed at you op). I just hate to see these people termed over something they cannot help and are in the process of figuring out.

Yes, it's a challenge. Yes, it's new and unknown territory. But how else will we grow as providers if we don't challenge ourselves? If we don't move out of our comfort zones? We can't all have a perfectly healthy, well behaved group of little angels. That's desirable of course, but it's not reality. And aren't we supposed to be in a partnership with these parents? A partnership to raise happy, healthy, smart children? I find it very disheartening that so many posters would instantly jump ship over this. The meds can be negotiated. There was one bad phone call where mom was distracted. That deserves a termination??

Everyone is saying it is for the safety of the other children, but those children would not be in any danger. There is some thrashing about that occurs with grand mals, but if you quickly move the children out of the way, there's no danger. When it's over, simply call mom for pick up. But once the child is established on meds, it isn't likely he will seize at daycare.

For the ones who said what happens when you're out for a walk or at the store, etc. What do you think mom will do in those situations? She's not going to segregate her child from society because he MIGHT have a seizure. That would be ridiculous. Life goes on. You have to roll with the punches. So yes, for me, a person who did lots of research and made sure I was educated on the type of seizures and how to handle them if/when they come, it IS no big deal.
When I took the children on walks, I'd sometimes have two riding in a double stroller and 2 walking and each holding onto the stroller on either side. It would be too hard to deal with the seizure and hope the two walkers would stay where they were supposed to stay. The seizure itself in public wouldn't bother me it would be the safety of the other children.

My child had epilepsy (the doctor's told us they call it epilepsy when no cause can be found for the seizures such as high fever or whatever). So I wouldn't have a problem watching the child if I didn't have other children. Also I'd have to be trained in what they wanted me to do.

Laurel
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Cat Herder 08:42 AM 09-03-2014
My personal opinion is nobody should be pressured or guilted into doing something they do not feel qualified to do. If the worst happens and you can not defend your actions during the investigation, don't do it.

Yes, training can be sought out in case this comes up again later in your career, but for a parent (or other providers) to force it on a another adult, during the acute phase is unreasonable. They don't even know this kids full dx, yet.

This is the pdf from the best source (imho) on this issue. It is crazy long, but valuable. pg 27-32... the order is off. Numbers don't start until after page xiii. 3.2Q section A is of particular interest. "fundamentally alter the nature of the service provided" and 3.7Q section A "what is considered reasonable for a child care center that is part of a national chain may not be considered reasonable for a single provider who takes children into her home"
http://www.epilepsynorcal.org/docs/E...on_DayCare.pdf
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craftymissbeth 08:44 AM 09-03-2014
CatHerder,
I couldn't get your link to work, but is this it?
http://www.epilepsynorcal.org/docs/E...andDayCare.pdf
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NightOwl 08:46 AM 09-03-2014
That's the thing, mom is just as inexperienced too. This is a new ground for her too. And now she's being told she's on her own by her provider. I can't imagine being in her shoes.

If she doesn't have good service at work, then she needs to supply the provider with a land line number and shouldn't be on her phone anyway as a Preschool teacher. They just need to work out the kinks! I know the op is terming, but all of this will apply to the new provider once mom has found someone willing to care for him.

Maybe rehoming the dog is a measure she's taking because she feels like she can't care for the dog with dcbs new medical issues. She doesn't just want to dump it at the pound, she's being responsible and finding a new home. We just don't know. But everyone is assuming that she considers the dog more important. If the above statement is, true, I see rehoming the dog as putting her child first. She's relieving herself of a responsibility to better focus on dcb. But again, we just don't know for sure. Everyone just assumes.
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NightOwl 08:50 AM 09-03-2014
Totally off topic, but I must say:

@ thegoodlife and laurel, and the others in this thread, I love that you guys can participate in a heated debate and not get ugly! Props to you! I love a good debate.
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craftymissbeth 08:54 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
That's the thing, mom is just as inexperienced too. This is a new ground for her too. And now she's being told she's on her own by her provider. I can't imagine being in her shoes.

If she doesn't have good service at work, then she needs to supply the provider with a land line number and shouldn't be on her phone anyway as a Preschool teacher. They just need to work out the kinks! I know the op is terming, but all of this will apply to the new provider once mom has found someone willing to care for him.

Maybe rehoming the dog is a measure she's taking because she feels like she can't care for the dog with dcbs new medical issues. She doesn't just want to dump it at the pound, she's being responsible and finding a new home. We just don't know. But everyone is assuming that she considers the dog more important. If the above statement is, true, I see rehoming the dog as putting her child first. She's relieving herself of a responsibility to better focus on dcb. But again, we just don't know for sure. Everyone just assumes.
If you can't take care of a dog because of dcb's condition, then what makes you think a provider can care for multiple other children along with dcb and his condition?
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Blackcat31 08:59 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
If you can't take care of a dog because of dcb's condition, then what makes you think a provider can care for multiple other children along with dcb and his condition?


....and BECAUSE mom is walking on a new path is EXACTLY why I wouldn't take her child.

If something happened on MY watch because I was not fully informed or educated, it is MY livelihood and income at risk NOT moms.

If mom truly wants to work WITH her provider then she needs to take some sort of FMLA and figure out HER child's situation BEFORE giving it to someone else to manage.

IF and WHEN a parent has their part under control, then I will make an educated decision on whether or not I'd be willing to provide care for her child.
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melilley 09:00 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
That's the thing, mom is just as inexperienced too. This is a new ground for her too. And now she's being told she's on her own by her provider. I can't imagine being in her shoes.

If she doesn't have good service at work, then she needs to supply the provider with a land line number and shouldn't be on her phone anyway as a Preschool teacher. They just need to work out the kinks! I know the op is terming, but all of this will apply to the new provider once mom has found someone willing to care for him.

Maybe rehoming the dog is a measure she's taking because she feels like she can't care for the dog with dcbs new medical issues. She doesn't just want to dump it at the pound, she's being responsible and finding a new home. We just don't know. But everyone is assuming that she considers the dog more important. If the above statement is, true, I see rehoming the dog as putting her child first. She's relieving herself of a responsibility to better focus on dcb. But again, we just don't know for sure. Everyone just assumes.
They are re homing the dog, actually 3 of them- the other 2 were previously rehomed, because of either dcb's older brothers allergies or dcb's allergies. But I have a dog and dcb is here full time and older brother comes as a drop in.
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craftymissbeth 09:00 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:


....and BECAUSE mom is walking on a new path is EXACTLY why I wouldn't take her child.

If something happened on MY watch because I was not fully informed or educated, it is MY livelihood and income at risk NOT moms.

If mom truly wants to work WITH her provider then she needs to take some sort of FMLA and figure out HER child's situation BEFORE giving it to someone else to manage.

IF and WHEN a parent has their part under control, then I will make an educated decision on whether or not I'd be willing to provide care for her child.
Not to mention that dcd apparently has no clue either and neither of them seem like it's urgent for him to know what's going on at all.
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Cat Herder 09:04 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
CatHerder,
I couldn't get your link to work, but is this it?
http://www.epilepsynorcal.org/docs/E...andDayCare.pdf
I fixed it and added the exact locations and terminology in my above post.

I do want to throw out there that child care providers are not co-parents or extended family.

There are roles, sacrifices and responsibilities that are 100% on the parents. Society keeps trying to dump more and more "parent" on care providers, but we do not have to comply.

Having children is hard and sometimes our own life goals must take a back seat to our kids needs. That is what it is to have a child, it is not mandatory, it is a privilege and a responsibility.
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melilley 09:18 AM 09-03-2014
So dcm just texted me from work. She claims that dcd said that I was OK with not giving him the meds. Why in the world would I say that? She said that she gave them to me because she thought I would want them if he does start convulsing. She also said that he does have an appointment this week with the neurologist. For something so important, you would think that they would have said something. And she said sorry for all the drama. She's going to call at naptime, let's see how it goes.
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TheGoodLife 09:34 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Totally off topic, but I must say:

@ thegoodlife and laurel, and the others in this thread, I love that you guys can participate in a heated debate and not get ugly! Props to you! I love a good debate.
I'm glad you're not getting riled up here, I also love debates I think you are seeing things from the DCM's POV, which is great and I feel for the whole family, but I do disagree to the extent of credit given the mom.

Originally Posted by Wednesday:
That's the thing, mom is just as inexperienced too. This is a new ground for her too. And now she's being told she's on her own by her provider. I can't imagine being in her shoes.

Maybe rehoming the dog is a measure she's taking because she feels like she can't care for the dog with dcbs new medical issues. She doesn't just want to dump it at the pound, she's being responsible and finding a new home. We just don't know. But everyone is assuming that she considers the dog more important.
I agree, I feel for the mom and especially the DCK!!! It is a very scary situation to learn your child has serious medical needs! However, she CHOSE to call the provider when she didn't have the time to give her proper time for clarification and understanding. It's not like the provider called to ask questions and caught her at a bad time. Can you honestly say that, if you were in a situation that a serious medical condition caused your child to be in a hospital for 3 days, that you would not make sure to find appropriate time to contact your child's provider and give them all the information and make sure you were able to answer any questions or concerns they have? That you would not at least be able to have the time to have the conversation, even if you don't have the answers- to at least discuss everything thoroughly? I know DCM is probably not clear on everything herself, but she should make sure the provider is comfortable and be given anything/everything she needs from both her and the doctors involved. That, to me, is poor, selfish parenting- to just brush it off and take your child to a caregiver that has medical questions and concerns; whether or not she is stressed or upset, she is taking a huge risk of leaving her child without proper medical preparation/training/knowledge! And to not return a phone call after the OP has reached out to her and the DCD for help- not OK, no matter how overwhelmed you are!
She needs to make sure her provider is prepared before that first drop-off, and if not take the time to find a childcare situation that best meets all needs of her child. As a parent, nothing should ever be more important that your child's health and safety!
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SignMeUp 10:15 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by TheGoodLife:
I'm glad you're not getting riled up here, I also love debates I think you are seeing things from the DCM's POV, which is great and I feel for the whole family, but I do disagree to the extent of credit given the mom.



I agree, I feel for the mom and especially the DCK!!! It is a very scary situation to learn your child has serious medical needs! However, she CHOSE to call the provider when she didn't have the time to give her proper time for clarification and understanding. It's not like the provider called to ask questions and caught her at a bad time. Can you honestly say that, if you were in a situation that a serious medical condition caused your child to be in a hospital for 3 days, that you would not make sure to find appropriate time to contact your child's provider and give them all the information and make sure you were able to answer any questions or concerns they have? That you would not at least be able to have the time to have the conversation, even if you don't have the answers- to at least discuss everything thoroughly? I know DCM is probably not clear on everything herself, but she should make sure the provider is comfortable and be given anything/everything she needs from both her and the doctors involved. That, to me, is poor, selfish parenting- to just brush it off and take your child to a caregiver that has medical questions and concerns; whether or not she is stressed or upset, she is taking a huge risk of leaving her child without proper medical preparation/training/knowledge! And to not return a phone call after the OP has reached out to her and the DCD for help- not OK, no matter how overwhelmed you are!
She needs to make sure her provider is prepared before that first drop-off, and if not take the time to find a childcare situation that best meets all needs of her child. As a parent, nothing should ever be more important that your child's health and safety!
Heck, yeah I was unhappy with one of my dcms yesterday/this morning because she took her child to the e.r. in the middle of the night (night before last), where she had a shot for strep. Dcm then left the country (work-related) and instructed her parental back-up to bring child to my house this morning. Dcm left all of this info on my voicemail. I had no way to reach the back-up.
So when back-up brought child in this morning and said child had no fever since last night I said 'sorry, child can't come until she's fever-free for 24 hours'. Of course The Doctor said she could have come 24 hours after the shot

In short: My dcm did not take the time to figure out the situation for her child with strep. And child was not allowed to attend.
So, a seizure disorder (presumably on-going?) without proper information/training/guidance? There is no way I could take that child in good conscience.

Adding this here too. My child had two seizures as a toddler. Looked like imminent death. Blue face, no breathing, limbs jerking. I suspended care until we had things figured out. It was the scariest thing I have ever seen. And yes, child was at risk of death.
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TheGoodLife 10:26 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
So dcm just texted me from work. She claims that dcd said that I was OK with not giving him the meds. Why in the world would I say that? She said that she gave them to me because she thought I would want them if he does start convulsing. She also said that he does have an appointment this week with the neurologist. For something so important, you would think that they would have said something. And she said sorry for all the drama. She's going to call at naptime, let's see how it goes.
Sounds so confusing! I hope she calls today and you can work out a good resolution for your situation- whether you term or not.
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SquirrellyMama 10:56 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Mom of 4 logged out:
Staring into space is absence or "petit mal" seizures. It's usually harmless, and a lot of kiddos outgrow it. My son did. No worries.

As for the rest of it, I have to log in at work and can't respond but OMG!
My dd had these seizures also. I know you said usually harmless, but, but they can also be very dangerous. When having these seizures she didn't stop the activity she was doing. It was kind of like an auto pilot. She had them while eating, and kept eating, but not normally. She was swallowing the food in her mouth in gulps. She had one in the swimming pool. I was there and able to keep her safe, but had I not been there she could have drowned.

The scariest one was when she was riding her bike. I was there, but couldn't stop her bike. Luckily, these are short seizures, but can be deadly in the right circumstance.

My dd also grew out of them after being on meds for a few years.

Kelly
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melilley 11:05 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
My dd had these seizures also. I know you said usually harmless, but, but they can also be very dangerous. When having these seizures she didn't stop the activity she was doing. It was kind of like an auto pilot. She had them while eating, and kept eating, but not normally. She was swallowing the food in her mouth in gulps. She had one in the swimming pool. I was there and able to keep her safe, but had I not been there she could have drowned.

The scariest one was when she was riding her bike. I was there, but couldn't stop her bike. Luckily, these are short seizures, but can be deadly in the right circumstance.

My dd also grew out of them after being on meds for a few years.

Kelly
This is exactly what dcb does! He will eat and just sit and stare at times and also swallows his food in gulps when he stares.
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melilley 11:20 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
The thing is, and I've seen it preached over and over on this forum, we don't know what the other conversation was about. It could've been very important. We don't know, not even op, the extent this mom is going to. We can assume, but that doesn't make it true. I'm sure she isn't giving op a play by play of every Dr visit, every phone discussion with Dr's, every Google search she does for more info.

I see complaints about the inadequacies of parents on the forum all the time, some of them from me. But I think this mom IS on top of it. She's still learning the ropes of what it means to have an epileptic child. She's going through some life altering changes right now and it is to be expected that she's overwhelmed. That's exactly what it sounds like to me, an overwhelmed mom.

The aspects that she doesn't have together? She'll get it together. She just needs some time to settle into this new reality. I do not believe this parent deserves a bashing because she's overwhelmed. She needs some sympathy, a kind ear, a shoulder. And a chance to gather herself and her thoughts.

I am in the extreme minority on this, which is odd to me because I have extensive experience with epilepsy and can offer tons of advice. But I guess the fear of the unknown trumps that (not directed at you op). I just hate to see these people termed over something they cannot help and are in the process of figuring out.

Yes, it's a challenge. Yes, it's new and unknown territory. But how else will we grow as providers if we don't challenge ourselves? If we don't move out of our comfort zones? We can't all have a perfectly healthy, well behaved group of little angels. That's desirable of course, but it's not reality. And aren't we supposed to be in a partnership with these parents? A partnership to raise happy, healthy, smart children? I find it very disheartening that so many posters would instantly jump ship over this. The meds can be negotiated. There was one bad phone call where mom was distracted. That deserves a termination??

Everyone is saying it is for the safety of the other children, but those children would not be in any danger. There is some thrashing about that occurs with grand mals, but if you quickly move the children out of the way, there's no danger. When it's over, simply call mom for pick up. But once the child is established on meds, it isn't likely he will seize at daycare.

For the ones who said what happens when you're out for a walk or at the store, etc. What do you think mom will do in those situations? She's not going to segregate her child from society because he MIGHT have a seizure. That would be ridiculous. Life goes on. You have to roll with the punches. So yes, for me, a person who did lots of research and made sure I was educated on the type of seizures and how to handle them if/when they come, it IS no big deal.
I disagree with the statement in bold. Yes, the other children could be in danger, especially if we are on a walk. I usually have 5-6 children and they are all 2.5 and under, with the exception of one 3 yo. What would the children do if I had to stop and take care of the child who is having a seizure? I can't be with dcb and all the other dck's who could run in the street and potentially get hurt. As for mom, it's just her and her other ds. She's not out and about with 5-6 toddlers.

And I also don't believe mom is on top of it. She would have called and gotten him in asap. My sis is a RN at the same hospital and she said they always have a neurologist on call and they shouldn't have let him go if they said he should see one. There are other things that this dcf has done in the past and I have written about them quite a few times on here. My biggest concerns are dcb as well as the other children. Heres the story that always gets me and is one reason why I have some concerns on this issue: Dcb also has asthma. One day he was having a bad attack. I called mom, no answer, called dad, no answer, called moms work and they told me that dcm left earlier because dcb was in the hospital. He was here with me! Finally dcd calls back and tells me that dcm went home because they closed the school and that he will call her. Finally mom calls and I told her I had been trying to get ahold of her because of dcb's condition and the first thing she asked was what I told her work. She did come to get him and low and behold, she had to take him to the hospital.

I should have termed then. I have a whole slew of stories about this family and this is one reason why I feel the need to term and am nervous about keeping dcb with what may be this condition.
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TheGoodLife 11:47 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
And I also don't believe mom is on top of it. She would have called and gotten him in asap. My sis is a RN at the same hospital and she said they always have a neurologist on call and they shouldn't have let him go if they said he should see one. There are other things that this dcf has done in the past and I have written about them quite a few times on here. My biggest concerns are dcb as well as the other children. Heres the story that always gets me and is one reason why I have some concerns on this issue: Dcb also has asthma. One day he was having a bad attack. I called mom, no answer, called dad, no answer, called moms work and they told me that dcm left earlier because dcb was in the hospital. He was here with me! Finally dcd calls back and tells me that dcm went home because they closed the school and that he will call her. Finally mom calls and I told her I had been trying to get ahold of her because of dcb's condition and the first thing she asked was what I told her work. She did come to get him and low and behold, she had to take him to the hospital.

I should have termed then. I have a whole slew of stories about this family and this is one reason why I feel the need to term and am nervous about keeping dcb with what may be this condition.
I remember that story. I would definitely term now- this DCM is not responsible and you are going to be the one liable if anything happens.
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Blackcat31 11:50 AM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
I disagree with the statement in bold. Yes, the other children could be in danger.
I had a child here who had a seizure. One time thing but the fall out from the other kids (all under SA) having to observe that happening was horrible.

The other kids may not necessarily be in physical danger but it could potentially cause them some emotional stress psychologically.

I couldn't imagine trying to comprehend something like that at 2 or 3 yrs old.
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NightOwl 01:58 PM 09-03-2014
We will have to agree to disagree on many of these points. Some of your points are valid, but some of mine are also.

If I would've known from the beginning that this is the same family where the mom couldn't be reached after an asthma attack, I may have formed a different opinion from the get go. But op didn't share that initially.

I suppose I am more confortable with it because I have lived it many times. I still wouldn't term over this specifically. Maybe with adding in the previous issues with the family, but not over epilepsy. I still feel that it's totally manageable.

Asthma can be life threatening, but we don't head for the hills when someone says my child has asthma. Maybe because it's much more common? Idk... The only thing I know for sure is that the vast majority of us readily accept children with asthma. And when other children witness their friend's asthma attack, it can be very scary for them. But do we term? No, we don't.

I know many of you have said you would term due to mom's incompetence, but several of you said you would term based on the epilepsy alone (or eluded to that in your posts). THAT I cannot agree with.

So, please keep us updated op. Good luck with your phone call! I'm sure we're all curious as to how it goes. Remember, don't tell her you're terming specifically because the child is epileptic. Tell her you feel like you cannot safely manage his condition while caring for the other children and you should be fine.
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Laurel 03:12 PM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
Totally off topic, but I must say:

@ thegoodlife and laurel, and the others in this thread, I love that you guys can participate in a heated debate and not get ugly! Props to you! I love a good debate.
Thanks! People tell me that a lot even when it is politics or religion. I used to belong to a political forum and also often debated religion as the topic of school prayer, Christmas creches, etc. came up in current events.

I love a good debate too. I don't see this though as much of a debate because a provider has to go with their gut since they are taking responsibility for someone else's child's health. I do get your point about everyone being hit with this all of a sudden and all need time to adjust. It is tough.

Laurel
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TwinKristi 04:15 PM 09-03-2014
There is no debate here. You can't tell another provider that seizures are just no big deal and just tough it out. That's really rediculous. This OP knows her capability and the family better than anyone trying to debate the issue.

I remember the family in the OP and I would NOT continue watching their children under these circumstances. Just like anything else relating to DCKs, when one child monopolizes most of your time and attention that means the other kids are going without. When this child ultimately has a seizure at childcare and OP has to call 911 and deal with it that IS traumatic for everyone. Neighbors, OP, DCKs, daycare families, etc. God forbid they're on a walk, on a field trip, at a holiday party... it's not something easy to deal with. Add to that the fact that if the child gets sick, his sleep is out of whack, he has a growth spurt and meds aren't as effective... you increase the likelihood of a breakthrough seizure even WITH meds. Anyone who had experience with epilepsy or seizures should know that it's really unpredictable.

I guess having had a seizure myself and being fully coherent through the first one and seeing my husband and my father's sheer panic and distress I would never want to put someone else through that. Paid or not! Seizures are just one thing I won't mess with. My child had breath holding spells at 1-3yrs and sometimes it looked like he was having a seizure and it scared the crap out of me. If another persons child had one in my care I don't think I would be the same after. Witnessing my mom's seizures, even though she was on meds, she has epilepsy and has had many many seizures, I just can't explain the helplessness of seeing it and then there's nothing you can do about it.
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NightOwl 05:00 PM 09-03-2014
"There is no debate here. You can't tell another provider that seizures are just no big deal and just tough it out. That's really rediculous."

Well, so much for keeping it nice. I don't think what I said was ridiculous at all.

And I never said tough it out. I said op should consider educating herself, researching, etc. Not blindly tough it out. I would never in a million years recommend that.

And yes, it is a debate, if two opposing viewpoints are being expressed. You know, nicely, without placing the judgment of the other "side" being ridiculous because you don't agree with them.
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TwinKristi 05:22 PM 09-03-2014
It's just that you won't give up. You keep coming back to defend your stance on how minor seizures are as if you'll change her or anyone else's mind. Some providers won't even deal with green snot, an Epi-pen or a dose of Tylenol but somehow seizures, major Rx medication and calling 911 is no big deal to those who have to be part of or witness this. Your opinion isn't what's ridiculous to me, it's that you view someone else's livelihood as a debatable subject. Melissa doesn't have to, by law or moral code, do anything to accommodate this family. She was looking for moral support and the vast majority said no way without an aide, paid training, etc. She's already said the family has lied about their whereabouts, their children's medical issues and didn't even have the time to sit down (let alone talk on the phone )and develop a plan of action in case of a medical emergency or see if she's on the same page. They just hand their provider a tube of gel to stick in their child's rectum if he has a seizure. Those are not parents who are "on top of things" and doesn't sound conducive to a small home childcare setting. I'm all up for a good debate but this just isn't even debatable, it's completely dependent upon what this provider wants to do in her care and if she doesn't feel she wants to put this weight on her shoulders (and I don't blame or disagree in the slightest) she shouldn't be guilted into thinking it's not as big of a deal as it is or all she has to do is x,y,z and it's ok. There are some providers who specialize in special needs care and are professionally trained and advertise as so. She is not. This is a topic very near and dear to me and I wouldn't wish it on anyone in the world.
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Cradle2crayons 06:11 PM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by TwinKristi:
It's just that you won't give up. You keep coming back to defend your stance on how minor seizures are as if you'll change her or anyone else's mind. Some providers won't even deal with green snot, an Epi-pen or a dose of Tylenol but somehow seizures, major Rx medication and calling 911 is no big deal to those who have to be part of or witness this. Your opinion isn't what's ridiculous to me, it's that you view someone else's livelihood as a debatable subject. Melissa doesn't have to, by law or moral code, do anything to accommodate this family. She was looking for moral support and the vast majority said no way without an aide, paid training, etc. She's already said the family has lied about their whereabouts, their children's medical issues and didn't even have the time to sit down (let alone talk on the phone )and develop a plan of action in case of a medical emergency or see if she's on the same page. They just hand their provider a tube of gel to stick in their child's rectum if he has a seizure. Those are not parents who are "on top of things" and doesn't sound conducive to a small home childcare setting. I'm all up for a good debate but this just isn't even debatable, it's completely dependent upon what this provider wants to do in her care and if she doesn't feel she wants to put this weight on her shoulders (and I don't blame or disagree in the slightest) she shouldn't be guilted into thinking it's not as big of a deal as it is or all she has to do is x,y,z and it's ok. There are some providers who specialize in special needs care and are professionally trained and advertise as so. She is not. This is a topic very near and dear to me and I wouldn't wish it on anyone in the world.


Heck I do special needs care.. and I'm professionally trained... and I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole... not because of the diagnosis (read: maybe a diagnosis)... but because of the MOM.
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NightOwl 06:31 PM 09-03-2014
Originally Posted by TwinKristi:
It's just that you won't give up. You keep coming back to defend your stance on how minor seizures are as if you'll change her or anyone else's mind. Some providers won't even deal with green snot, an Epi-pen or a dose of Tylenol but somehow seizures, major Rx medication and calling 911 is no big deal to those who have to be part of or witness this. Your opinion isn't what's ridiculous to me, it's that you view someone else's livelihood as a debatable subject. Melissa doesn't have to, by law or moral code, do anything to accommodate this family. She was looking for moral support and the vast majority said no way without an aide, paid training, etc. She's already said the family has lied about their whereabouts, their children's medical issues and didn't even have the time to sit down (let alone talk on the phone )and develop a plan of action in case of a medical emergency or see if she's on the same page. They just hand their provider a tube of gel to stick in their child's rectum if he has a seizure. Those are not parents who are "on top of things" and doesn't sound conducive to a small home childcare setting. I'm all up for a good debate but this just isn't even debatable, it's completely dependent upon what this provider wants to do in her care and if she doesn't feel she wants to put this weight on her shoulders (and I don't blame or disagree in the slightest) she shouldn't be guilted into thinking it's not as big of a deal as it is or all she has to do is x,y,z and it's ok. There are some providers who specialize in special needs care and are professionally trained and advertise as so. She is not. This is a topic very near and dear to me and I wouldn't wish it on anyone in the world.
Won't give up? Is there a point where I'm supposed to say you are right and I am wrong? This is a place for opinions and mine is just as valid as yours. You obviously did not read my last post about agreeing to disagree. I think that pretty much sums up that I know I'm not changing anyone's mind and am ready to drop it. And then you come in and call my views ridiculous and put words into my mouth. If you're going to disagree with me, do it respectfully and be informed on what I've already posted as the other ladies have.

And for the record I never tried "guilting" her into it. I offered my support, my phone number to walk her through it IF she decided to keep the child.

I am not debating her livelihood. Now THAT is a ridiculous statement. I would never advise someone to do something that I thought could damage their business. I have been debating whether or not home providers should or shouldn't consider caring for a child with epilepsy.

If you had read my earlier posts you would see that this topic is also very near and dear to me. The first seizure I ever saw was my brother's. It was one of the scariest things I've ever witnessed. I understood why people, a century ago, thought epileptic people were possessed by a demon. He looked like something straight out of the Exorcist. I have experienced all sorts of seizures between him and my former employee and my dcks that had them. I am not just blowing hot air here.

You wouldn't take an epileptic child. I would. The end. I don't know what else to say about it because we will never agree on this. But that's Ok. We don't have to agree. But we DO have to disagree in a professional, respectful way.
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Jazminsdaycare 12:10 AM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I had a child here who had a seizure. One time thing but the fall out from the other kids (all under SA) having to observe that happening was horrible.

The other kids may not necessarily be in physical danger but it could potentially cause them some emotional stress psychologically.

I couldn't imagine trying to comprehend something like that at 2 or 3 yrs old.
well, lets see I have had a child that is deaf and she screams pretty loud because she doesn't know how loud she is and my little kids learn that we love her anyway and I teach them that her ears don't work and that's why she screams and is sometimes scary I teach them sign language and they LOVE her

I also have taken care of a boy that had down syndrome and he would do some "scary" things but my kids loved him and learned how we are all different and special but worthy of acceptance

For a child with epilepsy I would explain that child sometimes might start shaking and maybe even fall on the floor because he has a little problem with part of his head but he's O.K. and it will be over soon and lets's just get some pillows around him until it's over( in a mild case)
Lesson? empathy, acceptance, love, and caring
Now I am not saying that OP should take the child but kids with disabilities or medical issues
deserve to have a chance in my opinion
My DD has epilepsy and she only had a couple seizures until we had it completely under control with meds and she never had a seizure again

Wednesday:
you sound like a very accepting and loving person
the kind of person I would love to know in real life
but it really does boil down to what Op is comfortable with
but I hope she keeps the child and works it out
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Unregistered 05:15 AM 09-04-2014
I haven't had a child in my day care that has seizures, but my own daughter, Jessica (now 32) has Rett Syndrome and seizures come along with that. I've seen her have lots of seizures, and before having her, yes... seizures would have scared me silly! Hers aren't real bad, she sort of twitches and turns a bit blue because she doesn't breathe, but it never lasted for more than a minute. It was scary to watch her color change!!! Usually she was laying or sitting when she'd have them, only once she was standing and hit her head falling down and got a bump. She lives with other people now, since she was 16 and I believe she is still on Depakote, a red liquid medicine.

I can't believe they are using a suppository medicine for that child! That's weird! It depends on how severe his seizures are. The staring seizure you described is a Petit Mal, not a Grand Mal... which has convulsions. So too bad for this little guy to have that! Regardless of where or who he is with, if he's having the seizures you just make him comfortable and he will come out of it. If I have very many kids in my care I wouldn't want to try to deal with that just because I wouldn't be aware all the time what's going on with him. I always stayed by Jessica until her seizures were over. They don't "swallow" their tongue and all that stuff... my only fear with her was the breathing. But her medicine pretty much keeps her from having them from what her care takers say.
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Laurel 05:43 AM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I haven't had a child in my day care that has seizures, but my own daughter, Jessica (now 32) has Rett Syndrome and seizures come along with that. I've seen her have lots of seizures, and before having her, yes... seizures would have scared me silly! Hers aren't real bad, she sort of twitches and turns a bit blue because she doesn't breathe, but it never lasted for more than a minute. It was scary to watch her color change!!! Usually she was laying or sitting when she'd have them, only once she was standing and hit her head falling down and got a bump. She lives with other people now, since she was 16 and I believe she is still on Depakote, a red liquid medicine.

I can't believe they are using a suppository medicine for that child! That's weird! It depends on how severe his seizures are. The staring seizure you described is a Petit Mal, not a Grand Mal... which has convulsions. So too bad for this little guy to have that! Regardless of where or who he is with, if he's having the seizures you just make him comfortable and he will come out of it. If I have very many kids in my care I wouldn't want to try to deal with that just because I wouldn't be aware all the time what's going on with him. I always stayed by Jessica until her seizures were over. They don't "swallow" their tongue and all that stuff... my only fear with her was the breathing. But her medicine pretty much keeps her from having them from what her care takers say.
Luckily my son never stopped breathing (that I could tell anyway). I didn't realize that happened with seizures. He had grand mals with convulsing and eyes rolling, etc. It was so long ago but I remember he was on Dilantin and Phenobarbitol but he did outgrow them. We gradually weaned him off meds per doctor's instructions and he was okay.

Laurel
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NightOwl 06:02 AM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Laurel:
Luckily my son never stopped breathing (that I could tell anyway). I didn't realize that happened with seizures. He had grand mals with convulsing and eyes rolling, etc. It was so long ago but I remember he was on Dilantin and Phenobarbitol but he did outgrow them. We gradually weaned him off meds per doctor's instructions and he was okay.

Laurel
My brother takes those meds exactly! Pretty hefty doses too. A lot of people stop breathing during a seizure. Breath holding is a more accurate term. But scary, nonetheless.
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Blackcat31 06:06 AM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Jazminsdaycare:
well, lets see I have had a child that is deaf and she screams pretty loud because she doesn't know how loud she is and my little kids learn that we love her anyway and I teach them that her ears don't work and that's why she screams and is sometimes scary I teach them sign language and they LOVE her

I also have taken care of a boy that had down syndrome and he would do some "scary" things but my kids loved him and learned how we are all different and special but worthy of acceptance

For a child with epilepsy I would explain that child sometimes might start shaking and maybe even fall on the floor because he has a little problem with part of his head but he's O.K. and it will be over soon and lets's just get some pillows around him until it's over( in a mild case)
Lesson? empathy, acceptance, love, and caring
Now I am not saying that OP should take the child but kids with disabilities or medical issues
deserve to have a chance in my opinion
My DD has epilepsy and she only had a couple seizures until we had it completely under control with meds and she never had a seizure again
Cool! Glad it works for you.

It's just not something I would choose to expose my DCK's to.
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Unregistered 06:39 AM 09-04-2014
My daughter's seizures lasted between four and five minutes. She was not breathing, and her face was totally blue. Once the convulsion stopped, I tried to begin CPR because she was blue, limp and not breathing. Her jaw was locked closed so that was impossible. The doctors said later that while they do not "swallow their tongue", their tongue CAN fall back and block their airway, which is what they believe happened to my daughter. Out of desperation, while waiting for the paramedics, I did a heimlich maneuver and her tongue apparently dislodged and she began to breathe. Because of the length of the seizure she could have had serious brain damage or even lived the rest of her life in a vegetative state, according to her doctors.
I do not believe child care is appropriate for a child who has seizures until they are deemed stabilized and have had some time seizure free. They need one-to-one care until then so that someone has their eyes on them all the time. The seizures came out of nowhere. One minute she was walking around and the next she was down, jerking and not breathing. Plus I would never have wanted a provider to take her unless they were comfortable with everything and I was comfortable with them.
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NightOwl 07:54 AM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
My daughter's seizures lasted between four and five minutes. She was not breathing, and her face was totally blue. Once the convulsion stopped, I tried to begin CPR because she was blue, limp and not breathing. Her jaw was locked closed so that was impossible. The doctors said later that while they do not "swallow their tongue", their tongue CAN fall back and block their airway, which is what they believe happened to my daughter. Out of desperation, while waiting for the paramedics, I did a heimlich maneuver and her tongue apparently dislodged and she began to breathe. Because of the length of the seizure she could have had serious brain damage or even lived the rest of her life in a vegetative state, according to her doctors.
I do not believe child care is appropriate for a child who has seizures until they are deemed stabilized and have had some time seizure free. They need one-to-one care until then so that someone has their eyes on them all the time. The seizures came out of nowhere. One minute she was walking around and the next she was down, jerking and not breathing. Plus I would never have wanted a provider to take her unless they were comfortable with everything and I was comfortable with them.
This sounds like what happens when you have to open the airway with cpr because the tongue DOES fall back to block the throat. I'm so sorry you had to experience that. You must have been beyond terrified.

With my brother, I just knew he was going to die that day. His epilepsy is due to a past head injury. They said he would eventually, probably, have seizures from it. It was 5 years post head injury when he had his first seizure. And they were BIG, MASSIVE grand mals that came one right after the other. He needed medical intervention to get them to stop. He ended up having 6 in a 4 hour period, pulled almost every muscle in his body, and tore a rotator cuff from the convulsing. His is an extreme case though, and very atypical of epileptics.
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Laurel 01:36 PM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
My daughter's seizures lasted between four and five minutes. She was not breathing, and her face was totally blue. Once the convulsion stopped, I tried to begin CPR because she was blue, limp and not breathing. Her jaw was locked closed so that was impossible. The doctors said later that while they do not "swallow their tongue", their tongue CAN fall back and block their airway, which is what they believe happened to my daughter. Out of desperation, while waiting for the paramedics, I did a heimlich maneuver and her tongue apparently dislodged and she began to breathe. Because of the length of the seizure she could have had serious brain damage or even lived the rest of her life in a vegetative state, according to her doctors.
I do not believe child care is appropriate for a child who has seizures until they are deemed stabilized and have had some time seizure free. They need one-to-one care until then so that someone has their eyes on them all the time. The seizures came out of nowhere. One minute she was walking around and the next she was down, jerking and not breathing. Plus I would never have wanted a provider to take her unless they were comfortable with everything and I was comfortable with them.
Oh wow, so scary. I'm glad you are sharing what you did in case I ever see anything like that. The Heimlich is a great suggestion.
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melilley 02:07 PM 09-04-2014
Ok, I talked to dcm and apparently he had a seizure due to a high fever. They aren't sure what caused it and she said it may have been something viral. She also said that they said he's on the meds just in case and they don't think he should have another fever and they gave her the other meds just in case he does have one. She said she called and left a message with the neurologist and that if they don't call her back soon, she's just going to take him to the U of M Children's hospital. I guess she's a little more on top of it than she let on...if she really does take him.

If it's true that he had a seizure due to a high fever, is this a condition or can it happen just once because of the fever? I'm so confused.

She also said that she understands if I'm out of my comfort zone keeping him and if I decide to term, she understands. I told her that if he were to have a seizure here, that I'm not comfortable with the supervision issue of the other children (I said it in a more professional manner).

On one hand, if this is something that may happen again, I'm not comfortable with the safety issue, but if it's something that happened because of the fever then I'm not as concerned.
I am so confused!
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TwinKristi 02:21 PM 09-04-2014
Oh sheesh... Febrile seizures, while scary, are actually really common and don't even need a trip to the ER. They've found that it's not always how high the temp is but how quickly it increases that cause febrile seizures. I don't think that's even a "condition" they would treat with anti-seizure meds let alone Diastat! my friend's son was diagnosed with Epilepsy this year at 8 and they just now, even after being on meds for awhile and not well controlled, put in a request for Diastat. So that's not like the first line of action in those cases.
What would be difficult is facing cold/flu season knowing if he gets a fever that you have to treat it swift and hard to try and prevent the seizure.
I wouldn't term over a single febrile seizure personally. A seizure disorder and a one time febrile seizure are very different animals!
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Unregistered 02:22 PM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by Laurel:
Oh wow, so scary. I'm glad you are sharing what you did in case I ever see anything like that. The Heimlich is a great suggestion.
It was not a medically sanctioned idea. I just could not sit there and do nothing while my baby was blue and not breathing and no idea when help would arrive. Like I said, it was a desperation move.
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Blackcat31 02:45 PM 09-04-2014
Originally Posted by melilley:
Ok, I talked to dcm and apparently he had a seizure due to a high fever. They aren't sure what caused it and she said it may have been something viral. She also said that they said he's on the meds just in case and they don't think he should have another fever and they gave her the other meds just in case he does have one. She said she called and left a message with the neurologist and that if they don't call her back soon, she's just going to take him to the U of M Children's hospital. I guess she's a little more on top of it than she let on...if she really does take him.

If it's true that he had a seizure due to a high fever, is this a condition or can it happen just once because of the fever? I'm so confused.

She also said that she understands if I'm out of my comfort zone keeping him and if I decide to term, she understands. I told her that if he were to have a seizure here, that I'm not comfortable with the supervision issue of the other children (I said it in a more professional manner).

On one hand, if this is something that may happen again, I'm not comfortable with the safety issue, but if it's something that happened because of the fever then I'm not as concerned.
I am so confused!
Written instructions for ALL possible scenarios from the child's doctor.

In situations like this, I would not accept the parents word....I would need detailed instructions about the child's condition (even if only temporary) AND written instructions from the child's doctor and/or neurologist in regards to plan of action BEFORE and AFTER.
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