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  #1  
Old 04-08-2015, 07:45 AM
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Default Oppositional Disorder?

I just had a question
Does anyone know what oppositional disorder is?
In your opinion, is it real?
I have an 8 year old boy who's mom says he has this and this kid is so extremely defiant, try's to teach the little kids cuss word songs and likes to wrestle other kids down to the ground to get a toy he wants.
Of course I discipline appropriately and when I tell the mom about it she has this look on her face likes she's been through this thousands of times and then says " well, he does have oppositional disorder"
When I tell him I will be talking to his mom he just says " go ahead" and then laughs
I am so done with this and I plan on terming but what do I do for the next 2 weeks?
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:03 AM
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IMHO, immediate term.

We as providers are not trained to deal with this child's issues. Sounds like dcm believes the "boys will be boys" theory and doesn't try to work with him.

You cannot risk injury to another child.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:16 AM
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That's a really hard kiddo to work with if you continue with him, I'd ask mom for resources on how to work with him. If the school has a behavior plan or IEP that you could know about/be a part of. She def should just shrug it off as "well he does have odd." If DCM won't give you information on it or how they handle it at home/school etc I would def term. If they do...I don't know...with little ones, that would be hard. But that all depends on your comfort level.

Oh! I didn't see the part about terming in the next 2 weeks...in that case, try the best you can to control it? Or call for pick up anytime he starts causing problems? It may be one of those times an immediate term is nessacary

Last edited by finsup; 04-08-2015 at 08:18 AM. Reason: re-read post
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:00 AM
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I have definiteky hear of this diagnoses before but in my experience it's a lack of boundaries and limits at home that causes it. Not some inherent brain defect. Parents these days just never ever want to hear their kids cry so they are raising agressive out of control kids.

Best of luck in the next two weeks!
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:09 AM
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I have been trying to keep him separated from the little kids as much as possible and the big kids don't want to play with him at all
I just have him as my buddy so that I can always see what he is doing and saying and so that he is not alone but this is so tiring
I can't wait for these two weeks are up
I worry about his future, I read that they have have a real problem with authority and what's going to happen when he encounters the police.
sigh, I guess his mom needs to get a reality check and
My dh says he needs a very good strong male model which he has really tried to be but this kid just spits in his face and has tried to run off when in public

I am just wondering if he can really help it though
Is it a real brain disorder or chemical imbalance?
My honest opinion is lack of discipline
I don't want to give up on him but I know I have to for the protection of all the other kids
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:11 AM
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Ariana, we were typing at the same time
I totally agree with you
I don't think this "disorder" was ever heard of in the the 1950's
lol
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
Ariana, we were typing at the same time
I totally agree with you
I don't think this "disorder" was ever heard of in the the 1950's
lol
I also feel structure/routine with boundaries goes a long way. I have a special needs nephew and his parents expect good behavior. He has choices and consequences. He is now 18 with the mind of a 4 yr old, so without teaching/expectations, his physical stature could innocently hurt someone. Until the parents are on board working together the particular situation posted will not get better. I would term for the parents not being on board, not for the child's behavior. I feel his behavior will get better with both parties working together. I have termed for this same reason a few years back. The parents would NOT work with me! Good luck!
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
I have been trying to keep him separated from the little kids as much as possible and the big kids don't want to play with him at all
I just have him as my buddy so that I can always see what he is doing and saying and so that he is not alone but this is so tiring
I can't wait for these two weeks are up
I worry about his future, I read that they have have a real problem with authority and what's going to happen when he encounters the police.
sigh, I guess his mom needs to get a reality check and
My dh says he needs a very good strong male model which he has really tried to be but this kid just spits in his face and has tried to run off when in public

I am just wondering if he can really help it though
Is it a real brain disorder or chemical imbalance?
My honest opinion is lack of discipline
I don't want to give up on him but I know I have to for the protection of all the other kids
does he have an official diagnosis from the dr? just curious. I have earned about this disorder. If you cannot accommodate him, then term immediately for the safety of the other children.
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  #9  
Old 04-08-2015, 09:35 AM
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If any child was a danger to others it would be an immediate term .
I have had to do it in the past and it was not easy , I kept the child as long as I possibly could but when he tried to hurt a 2 yr old right in front of me and then laugh when I asked him why I knew it was time to part ways .
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  #10  
Old 04-08-2015, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
I just had a question
Does anyone know what oppositional disorder is?
In your opinion, is it real?
I have an 8 year old boy who's mom says he has this and this kid is so extremely defiant, try's to teach the little kids cuss word songs and likes to wrestle other kids down to the ground to get a toy he wants.
Of course I discipline appropriately and when I tell the mom about it she has this look on her face likes she's been through this thousands of times and then says " well, he does have oppositional disorder"
When I tell him I will be talking to his mom he just says " go ahead" and then laughs
I am so done with this and I plan on terming but what do I do for the next 2 weeks?
Call mom for pick up every time he has an incident.

If mom says he has this, then she can't possibly expect you to manage it.

I'd call her and tell her he needs to be picked up every time he is disrespectful and/or behaving badly. Especially the cuss word stuff.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Call mom for pick up every time he has an incident.

If mom says he has this, then she can't possibly expect you to manage it.

I'd call her and tell her he needs to be picked up every time he is disrespectful and/or behaving badly. Especially the cuss word stuff.
I agree. The cussing is what I had to deal with along with the birdie finger. When mom informed me the birdie finger was a knife instead of a birdie and laughed loudly, I termed!
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  #12  
Old 04-08-2015, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annalee View Post
I agree. The cussing is what I had to deal with along with the birdie finger. When mom informed me the birdie finger was a knife instead of a birdie and laughed loudly, I termed!
......because knives and/or pretending to have a knife is more acceptable at daycare than the birdie?!?!?

SMH.
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  #13  
Old 04-08-2015, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
I just had a question
Does anyone know what oppositional disorder is?
In your opinion, is it real?
I have an 8 year old boy who's mom says he has this and this kid is so extremely defiant, try's to teach the little kids cuss word songs and likes to wrestle other kids down to the ground to get a toy he wants.
Of course I discipline appropriately and when I tell the mom about it she has this look on her face likes she's been through this thousands of times and then says " well, he does have oppositional disorder"
When I tell him I will be talking to his mom he just says " go ahead" and then laughs
I am so done with this and I plan on terming but what do I do for the next 2 weeks?
Very real. I would term without 2 weeks notice. Been there. Never again. I start shaking when I read or hear ODD anymore (flashbacks! ).
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  #14  
Old 04-08-2015, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
I have been trying to keep him separated from the little kids as much as possible and the big kids don't want to play with him at all
I just have him as my buddy so that I can always see what he is doing and saying and so that he is not alone but this is so tiring
I can't wait for these two weeks are up
I worry about his future, I read that they have have a real problem with authority and what's going to happen when he encounters the police.
sigh, I guess his mom needs to get a reality check and
My dh says he needs a very good strong male model which he has really tried to be but this kid just spits in his face and has tried to run off when in public

I am just wondering if he can really help it though
Is it a real brain disorder or chemical imbalance?
My honest opinion is lack of discipline
I don't want to give up on him but I know I have to for the protection of all the other kids
The two kids I knew with ODD had:

2 parents each had a long list of mental and social disorders
history of neglect
history and current abuse
removal from home
ADHD
attachment issues
in utero and post-birth exposure to drugs, alcohol, and violence

It's hard to say exactly what the cause is, but there appears to be no cure, IMO. These kids are impossible.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:11 AM
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Yes, I do believe it's a legitimate condition. However, unless you have a diagnosis and a treatment/behavioral plan from his psychiatrist I would assume Mom was full of it and do as Blackcat suggested.

He should be in therapy and you should have a number of strategies to deal with his behavior. I've had one boy with ODD and he has spent time as an inpatient in the psych ward of our children's hospital. It was and is a very serious situation and no caregiver should be expected to handle a child with ODD unless they have all the facts and resources available to the parents.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyou View Post
Yes, I do believe it's a legitimate condition. However, unless you have a diagnosis and a treatment/behavioral plan from his psychiatrist I would assume Mom was full of it and do as Blackcat suggested.

He should be in therapy and you should have a number of strategies to deal with his behavior. I've had one boy with ODD and he has spent time as an inpatient in the psych ward of our children's hospital. It was and is a very serious situation and no caregiver should be expected to handle a child with ODD unless they have all the facts and resources available to the parents.


Either it's a medical/phsychological condition that has a diagnosis and a plan, and you need training, or it's mom's excuse, in which case, they both need help. Not your job.
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2015, 01:03 PM
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I think it's a load of bs!
Make your kid mind or punish him!
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:30 PM
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Ok
Thank you so much for all the responses and great advice
you gave me a lot to think about
I am still going to term but a lot sooner than 2 weeks.
I really appreciate all the help
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:33 PM
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Oh and yes, the mother says he is diagnosed with ODD and ADHD
He does take medicine but it doesn't help at all
If he doesn't get his way he will try to run out the door or jump out of the car
we are done!
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariana View Post
I have definiteky hear of this diagnoses before but in my experience it's a lack of boundaries and limits at home that causes it. Not some inherent brain defect. Parents these days just never ever want to hear their kids cry so they are raising agressive out of control kids.

Best of luck in the next two weeks!
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
Oh and yes, the mother says he is diagnosed with ODD and ADHD
He does take medicine but it doesn't help at all
If he doesn't get his way he will try to run out the door or jump out of the car
we are done!
Were you aware he was on meds? That would be a BIG no-no in my book and would be grounds for immediate termination.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CoachingForQualityImprovement View Post
Were you aware he was on meds? That would be a BIG no-no in my book and would be grounds for immediate termination.
I take kids on meds it's really no problem for me in most cases
I have taken kids with down syndrome, autism, deaf with other special needs, and adhd but this, I can't take!
I am really old school. My own kids even say to me , "mom that kid just needs a spanking"
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:51 PM
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I was diagnosed with ODD at age 13. My parents were very strict disciplinarians, they definitely didn't spare the rod if you know what I mean. I feel that every case is so very different, but in mine I was lashing out against all the restrictions they placed on me. So I hesitate to say that a good old fashioned punishment is all the kid needs. What IS certain is that he doesn't sound like he fits in your program, and that's all that counts in your case. It's your circus, but he's not your monkey, lol. Good luck, I know terming is hard, but the relief will be worth it!
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Meyou View Post
Yes, I do believe it's a legitimate condition. However, unless you have a diagnosis and a treatment/behavioral plan from his psychiatrist I would assume Mom was full of it and do as Blackcat suggested.

He should be in therapy and you should have a number of strategies to deal with his behavior. I've had one boy with ODD and he has spent time as an inpatient in the psych ward of our children's hospital. It was and is a very serious situation and no caregiver should be expected to handle a child with ODD unless they have all the facts and resources available to the parents.
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Old 04-09-2015, 06:10 AM
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I agree with the others in that if he doesn't work out in your daycare, then he doesn't work out.

Now, I do have experience with the dx'ing and dealing with ODD, it is just a list of check boxes the therapist goes through to see if the kid meet enough of the checkboxes. Like with all things with kids, there are some that are more severe and some that are barely an issue. I WILL say that my diagnosed ADHD & ODD kid is much easier to "correct" in a power struggle type situation than the neurotypical, "strong-willed" kid that is the same age. It is just that he is'on' all the time, where my typical kid the same age is pretty chill with the stubborn streak that escalates dramatically on occasion.

I have a feeling that my kid with ADHD (with a big H component, and a huge problem with impulsivity), that the impulsivity is what is giving the ODD dx, because generally he has a huge desire to please & easy to "turn around" his behavior when called out on it. Meaning he has an automatic "no!" or negative reaction to most things, but give him 3-5 seconds to think about it, he selects the appropriate reaction.

OTOH... My 13yo dd meets criteria for ODD, but her therapist decided to not add the ODD dx...b/c her defiance, lying, avoidance and manipulation are more learned coping mechanisms for her social anxiety/selective mutism, and not necessarily to be a pain in the ass.

I still have an 8yo school aged dck with a adhd/odd dx...and I have had her since a baby. Her and the 5yo with the same dx can get into a yelling match occasionally, and neither one are violent....just freaking loud and very, very dramatic about it all. I suspect that with the 8yo there are other mental health issues, but those can't be determined until closer to teen years. She is pretty good with me, though. One thing is that a militant stance on the little behaviors make the behaviors 1000x worse. My go-to method is 123 Magic style, consistency, and picking the right battles (super helpful book The Explosive Child: Parenting easily frustrated, chronically inflexible child).

I am just providing this info & resourced for anyone who wants to know, or understand. Not to pressure a provider into thinking they shouldn't term. But a lot of parents read this forum, and there are plenty of providers with their own difficult children(or daycare kids they want to keep), and knowledge is power.
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Old 04-09-2015, 07:58 AM
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I have had a child with ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). She was not diagnosed until after she left my program. She was a VERY difficult child and I should have termed LONG before she left for KG. My days were miserable during those years I had her. And trust me... it does not matter how consistent you are or the consequences you provide or the incentives you give for making good choices. NOTHING works. I had this child from 18 mo-5 years. So she was with me from early on with all the appropriate guidance and direction. There was no progress over these years and every day was a frustration. ODD is real and I do not recommend trying to work through it. Just term.

**I also used 123 Magic with some help from moment to moment, but it did not help change the behaviors for the positive long term.
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:06 PM
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It's a very real thing and I've been unfortunate enough to experience it. It's probably one of the most frustrating disorders out there. And there is no medication for it. The meds he takes are probably for the adhd. The only known treatment for odd is intense therapy. The children i've cared for were very disrespectful, showed no remorse, blatantly refused to follow rules or directions, had a superiority complex, etc. It's extremely hard to deal with. When she says "oh he just has odd" that's her excusing his behavior and that's NOT ok. I'm with the others. Immediate termination is in order.
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solandia View Post
I agree with the others in that if he doesn't work out in your daycare, then he doesn't work out.

Now, I do have experience with the dx'ing and dealing with ODD, it is just a list of check boxes the therapist goes through to see if the kid meet enough of the checkboxes. Like with all things with kids, there are some that are more severe and some that are barely an issue. I WILL say that my diagnosed ADHD & ODD kid is much easier to "correct" in a power struggle type situation than the neurotypical, "strong-willed" kid that is the same age. It is just that he is'on' all the time, where my typical kid the same age is pretty chill with the stubborn streak that escalates dramatically on occasion.

I have a feeling that my kid with ADHD (with a big H component, and a huge problem with impulsivity), that the impulsivity is what is giving the ODD dx, because generally he has a huge desire to please & easy to "turn around" his behavior when called out on it. Meaning he has an automatic "no!" or negative reaction to most things, but give him 3-5 seconds to think about it, he selects the appropriate reaction.

OTOH... My 13yo dd meets criteria for ODD, but her therapist decided to not add the ODD dx...b/c her defiance, lying, avoidance and manipulation are more learned coping mechanisms for her social anxiety/selective mutism, and not necessarily to be a pain in the ass.

I still have an 8yo school aged dck with a adhd/odd dx...and I have had her since a baby. Her and the 5yo with the same dx can get into a yelling match occasionally, and neither one are violent....just freaking loud and very, very dramatic about it all. I suspect that with the 8yo there are other mental health issues, but those can't be determined until closer to teen years. She is pretty good with me, though. One thing is that a militant stance on the little behaviors make the behaviors 1000x worse. My go-to method is 123 Magic style, consistency, and picking the right battles (super helpful book The Explosive Child: Parenting easily frustrated, chronically inflexible child).

I am just providing this info & resourced for anyone who wants to know, or understand. Not to pressure a provider into thinking they shouldn't term. But a lot of parents read this forum, and there are plenty of providers with their own difficult children(or daycare kids they want to keep), and knowledge is power.
wow! your life sounds exhausting!
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the helpful information
when I have tried everything I know how to help him and he just literally spits in my face and I get no support from mom, I don't feel so bad now.
thank you guys so much
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