Daycare.com Forum
Parents and Guardians Forum>A Conversation Is Coming With My Provider
gew95001 11:30 AM 03-01-2013
I recently received word from our daycare provider (family daycare) that our daughter had tried to take a toy from another child (both are 3 year olds). The other child wouldn't let go and my daughter pulled him over.
Initially the daycare provider told us that she was working on the behavior, and asked us to talk to our daughter, both of which are perfectly reasonable. However, later that day an email went out to all parents explaining that one of the children was bullying others and they'd had a lesson about bullying. As we found out more, the lesson turned out to be our daughter being sat down and being forced to listen to the daycare provider explain to the other 3-year-olds that she was a bully and not a good friend. The provider then went and got our daughters juice cup from the fridge and made another child drink all the juice while our child had to watch to teach her a lesson.
To me this seems to go far beyond what should happen in this kind of situation. I have a hard time accepting that a 3 year old taking a toy could rise to the level of "bullying". I found the discussion part of it extreme and can't imagine making a 3-year-old sit and listen to herself be criticized this way.
I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions.
Initially the daycare provider told us that she was working on the behavior, and asked us to talk to our daughter, both of which are perfectly reasonable. However, later that day an email went out to all parents explaining that one of the children was bullying others and they'd had a lesson about bullying. As we found out more, the lesson turned out to be our daughter being sat down and being forced to listen to the daycare provider explain to the other 3-year-olds that she was a bully and not a good friend. The provider then went and got our daughters juice cup from the fridge and made another child drink all the juice while our child had to watch to teach her a lesson.
To me this seems to go far beyond what should happen in this kind of situation. I have a hard time accepting that a 3 year old taking a toy could rise to the level of "bullying". I found the discussion part of it extreme and can't imagine making a 3-year-old sit and listen to herself be criticized this way.
I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions.
nannyde 11:38 AM 03-01-2013
How did you find out more?
gew95001 11:47 AM 03-01-2013
Good question. Secret camera I installed...just kidding. There were three sources. The daycare provider herself told me the majority of it in an email (though she left out the specifics and that she told the other kids that our daughter was a bully and "not a good friend"), our daughter, and one of the other parents. Our daughter told us that the provider told them that she was "a bully and not a good friend", then I got a call from the other parent, who told me that her daughter said the exact same words, and then told her that the provider told all of them that.
I should also add that the daycare provider is not disputing that she did it this way.
I should also add that the daycare provider is not disputing that she did it this way.
EntropyControlSpecialist 11:47 AM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
How did you find out more?
That is my question as well.How did you find out more?
EntropyControlSpecialist 11:48 AM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
Good question. Secret camera I installed...just kidding. There were three sources. The daycare provider herself told me the majority of it in an email (though she left out the specifics and that she told the other kids that our daughter was a bully and "not a good friend"), our daughter, and one of the other parents. Our daughter told us that the provider told them that she was "a bully and not a good friend", then I got a call from the other parent, who told me that her daughter said the exact same words, and then told her that the provider told all of them that.
I should also add that the daycare provider is not disputing that she did it this way.
If this is truly what happened, it is unacceptable. Humiliation is never an option. What state are you located in? There should be guidance and discipline strategies that can and cannot be used.Good question. Secret camera I installed...just kidding. There were three sources. The daycare provider herself told me the majority of it in an email (though she left out the specifics and that she told the other kids that our daughter was a bully and "not a good friend"), our daughter, and one of the other parents. Our daughter told us that the provider told them that she was "a bully and not a good friend", then I got a call from the other parent, who told me that her daughter said the exact same words, and then told her that the provider told all of them that.
I should also add that the daycare provider is not disputing that she did it this way.
nannyde 11:49 AM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
Good question. Secret camera I installed...just kidding. There were three sources. The daycare provider herself told me the majority of it in an email (though she left out the specifics and that she told the other kids that our daughter was a bully and "not a good friend"), our daughter, and one of the other parents. Our daughter told us that the provider told them that she was "a bully and not a good friend", then I got a call from the other parent, who told me that her daughter said the exact same words, and then told her that the provider told all of them that.
I should also add that the daycare provider is not disputing that she did it this way.
How three is your three year old?Good question. Secret camera I installed...just kidding. There were three sources. The daycare provider herself told me the majority of it in an email (though she left out the specifics and that she told the other kids that our daughter was a bully and "not a good friend"), our daughter, and one of the other parents. Our daughter told us that the provider told them that she was "a bully and not a good friend", then I got a call from the other parent, who told me that her daughter said the exact same words, and then told her that the provider told all of them that.
I should also add that the daycare provider is not disputing that she did it this way.
Blackcat31 11:51 AM 03-01-2013
In my state that would be considered unacceptable and would fall under discipline that was humiliating, shameful and/or not developmentally approriate.
I would remove my child IMMEDIATELY from care.
I would remove my child IMMEDIATELY from care.
Cat Herder 11:51 AM 03-01-2013
If you have already requested a meeting and she accepted, it may be better to wait until after she tells her side of this story to make a judgment. I'd hate for you to jump to conclusions and be terminated for something that could have cleared up in a civil conversation.
A 3 year old can spin some really tall tales, one of mine went swimming in a diamond mine before drop-off just this morning, even had the rocks in his pocket to show me....
He isn't lying, just relating a playful moment with his dad after watching a cartoon with a skewed view of reality. (disney pirates?)
I would be hurt and offended that you thought so little of me to be so eager to believe the worst... especially after choosing me to be your child's caretaker.
The one thing I do take issue to is having you wait until next week for closure. I'd want it cleared up TODAY.
This stuff festers and causes resentments. 
I can imagine saying "Shoving is something done by bullies." or "Bullies are not being good friends" in the course of a bully talk circle time... Some of the resource posters have photos of this, too....
A 3 year old can spin some really tall tales, one of mine went swimming in a diamond mine before drop-off just this morning, even had the rocks in his pocket to show me....
He isn't lying, just relating a playful moment with his dad after watching a cartoon with a skewed view of reality. (disney pirates?)I would be hurt and offended that you thought so little of me to be so eager to believe the worst... especially after choosing me to be your child's caretaker.
The one thing I do take issue to is having you wait until next week for closure. I'd want it cleared up TODAY.
This stuff festers and causes resentments. I can imagine saying "Shoving is something done by bullies." or "Bullies are not being good friends" in the course of a bully talk circle time... Some of the resource posters have photos of this, too....
gew95001 11:53 AM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
How three is your three year old?
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, but I think it's for a better idea of her age. She turned three at the end of November.How three is your three year old?
Heidi 11:54 AM 03-01-2013
Shaming a 3 year old in not appropriate, nor is it within regulations in our state. Neither is witholding food or drink, or giving one child another's cup (presumably used). Labeling a 3 year old openly with a name like "bully" is also not appropriate.
I don't think telling one child to take another child's anything is "being a good friend", or modeling "being a good friend". In fact, it's modeling "being a BULLY"
Ironic, actually. That's like smacking a kid while saying "don't hit your brother".
I would wonder about the training this provider has had in child development and managing behaviors. Everyone can loose their cool once in a while and say something to a child out of frustration. This, however, sounds calculated, and thought out...in a completey misguided way.
Edited to add: I agree with PP that you should try to have the meeting asap, and that you should give the provider a chance to explain before telling her what dd said. I had a 3 year old tell me last year that "mommy punched daddy in the nose" while relaying an attempt on dad's part to be funny after he got a black eye in a work accident.
I don't think telling one child to take another child's anything is "being a good friend", or modeling "being a good friend". In fact, it's modeling "being a BULLY"
Ironic, actually. That's like smacking a kid while saying "don't hit your brother".
I would wonder about the training this provider has had in child development and managing behaviors. Everyone can loose their cool once in a while and say something to a child out of frustration. This, however, sounds calculated, and thought out...in a completey misguided way.
Edited to add: I agree with PP that you should try to have the meeting asap, and that you should give the provider a chance to explain before telling her what dd said. I had a 3 year old tell me last year that "mommy punched daddy in the nose" while relaying an attempt on dad's part to be funny after he got a black eye in a work accident.
gew95001 11:55 AM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
If you have already requested a meeting and she accepted, it may be better to wait until after she tells her side of this story to make a judgment. I'd hate for you to jump to conclusions and be terminated for something that could have cleared up in a civil conversation.
A 3 year old can spin some really tall tales, one of mine went swimming in a diamond mine before drop-off just this morning, even had the rocks in his pocket to show me.... He isn't lying, just relating a playful moment with his dad after watching a cartoon with a skewed view of reality. (disney pirates?)
I would be hurt and offended that you thought so little of me to be so eager to believe the worst... especially after choosing me to be your child's caretaker.
The one thing I do take issue to is having you wait until next week for closure. I'd want it cleared up TODAY. This stuff festers and causes resentments.
Well, she's already told us her side of the story via email, and it matches up with what both children say. I wrote her an email last night explaining that what she described herself as doing was unacceptable and was not to happen again. We are currently looking for a new daycare, but I want to address this directly because my daughter is not the only child this could happen to.If you have already requested a meeting and she accepted, it may be better to wait until after she tells her side of this story to make a judgment. I'd hate for you to jump to conclusions and be terminated for something that could have cleared up in a civil conversation.
A 3 year old can spin some really tall tales, one of mine went swimming in a diamond mine before drop-off just this morning, even had the rocks in his pocket to show me....
He isn't lying, just relating a playful moment with his dad after watching a cartoon with a skewed view of reality. (disney pirates?)I would be hurt and offended that you thought so little of me to be so eager to believe the worst... especially after choosing me to be your child's caretaker.
The one thing I do take issue to is having you wait until next week for closure. I'd want it cleared up TODAY.
This stuff festers and causes resentments.
Cat Herder 12:00 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
Well, she's already told us her side of the story via email, and it matches up with what both children say. I wrote her an email last night explaining that what she described herself as doing was unacceptable and was not to happen again. We are currently looking for a new daycare, but I want to address this directly because my daughter is not the only child this could happen to.
She admitted to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend? Well, she's already told us her side of the story via email, and it matches up with what both children say. I wrote her an email last night explaining that what she described herself as doing was unacceptable and was not to happen again. We are currently looking for a new daycare, but I want to address this directly because my daughter is not the only child this could happen to.
Not addressing the behavior... actually labeling the child a bully to the group. OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
Heidi 12:02 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
She admited to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend? Not addressing the behavior... actually lableling the child a bully to the group.
OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
She admited to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend?
Not addressing the behavior... actually lableling the child a bully to the group. OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
Yes, even if you term your child, there are others still there (and will be more). This person needs more training or another career.
EntropyControlSpecialist 12:07 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
She admitted to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend? Not addressing the behavior... actually labeling the child a bully to the group.
OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
I agree. I would not take her back! She admitted to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend?
Not addressing the behavior... actually labeling the child a bully to the group. OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
Willow 12:10 PM 03-01-2013
I also don't understand in your first post when you say this:
"I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions."
She supposedly targeted a small child, singled out your individual family to all families enrolled, humiliated and demeaned your child and then forced multiple other children to drink out of another child's cup...... You then you say she admitted to all that. If that's the case then how could her response to your concern be that her hands are tied due to regulations? How so? - because regulations strictly prohibit all of those responses and behaviors. I don't understand how that explanation would even be relevant to the question or your concern at all.
I'm just stuck on why you have waited so long to address this. I don't understand why you'd ever send your child back if indeed your child's provider admitted to you that all this really happened. If I actually believed my child's daycare provider spoke to and treated her that way there is no way I would have ever left her in the providers care again.
I am confused about what you're hoping to accomplish by talking with her. How does a sit down change that what she did was insanely inappropriate and unacceptable?? Even if she apologized do you really trust this womans judgement if that's how she responded to a simple and very normal tiff between toddlers?
"I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions."
She supposedly targeted a small child, singled out your individual family to all families enrolled, humiliated and demeaned your child and then forced multiple other children to drink out of another child's cup...... You then you say she admitted to all that. If that's the case then how could her response to your concern be that her hands are tied due to regulations? How so? - because regulations strictly prohibit all of those responses and behaviors. I don't understand how that explanation would even be relevant to the question or your concern at all.
I'm just stuck on why you have waited so long to address this. I don't understand why you'd ever send your child back if indeed your child's provider admitted to you that all this really happened. If I actually believed my child's daycare provider spoke to and treated her that way there is no way I would have ever left her in the providers care again.
I am confused about what you're hoping to accomplish by talking with her. How does a sit down change that what she did was insanely inappropriate and unacceptable?? Even if she apologized do you really trust this womans judgement if that's how she responded to a simple and very normal tiff between toddlers?
MarinaVanessa 12:18 PM 03-01-2013
It is not acceptable to identify and label a child to the rest of the children and families. When behaviors that aren't acceptable happen they do need to be addressed between the two children in conflict but do not need to be addressed openly to the rest of the children, as in the entire thing explained to the the other kids and the whole point of the discussion be focused on what one child did and how one child is behaving etc.
A special reminder or lesson about the rules in the daycare and about being kind to our friends would have been enough but never identify why the lesson is being conducted or because of one child. And the offending child should never be shamed or humiliated.
The provider should not have identified the name of the child to the parent of the "victim" much less to all of the other families. This opens up the possibility of hostility and retaliation from a disgruntled parent of the "victim" towards the offending child or his/her family. That can be potentially dangerous.
If in fact the child was shamed in front of the children and labeled as a bully then that makes this scenario even worse. It could have been that your child knocked another child over intentionally and although that situation should be handled it doesn't make it right to further complicate the situation by further involving more people that have nothing to do with it and by creating an obviously already stressful situation for the offending child even more complicated and stressful. Yes, the issue needed to be addressed with both children but not in the same way that it was handled by the provider.
You are doing the right thing by looking for a provider elsewhere.
A special reminder or lesson about the rules in the daycare and about being kind to our friends would have been enough but never identify why the lesson is being conducted or because of one child. And the offending child should never be shamed or humiliated.
The provider should not have identified the name of the child to the parent of the "victim" much less to all of the other families. This opens up the possibility of hostility and retaliation from a disgruntled parent of the "victim" towards the offending child or his/her family. That can be potentially dangerous.
If in fact the child was shamed in front of the children and labeled as a bully then that makes this scenario even worse. It could have been that your child knocked another child over intentionally and although that situation should be handled it doesn't make it right to further complicate the situation by further involving more people that have nothing to do with it and by creating an obviously already stressful situation for the offending child even more complicated and stressful. Yes, the issue needed to be addressed with both children but not in the same way that it was handled by the provider.
You are doing the right thing by looking for a provider elsewhere.
Heidi 12:21 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
I also don't understand in your first post when you say this:
"I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions."
She supposedly targeted a small child, singled out your individual family to all families enrolled, humiliated and demeaned your child and then forced multiple other children to drink out of another child's cup...... You then you say she admitted to all that. If that's the case then how could her response to your concern be that her hands are tied due to regulations? How so? - because regulations strictly prohibit all of those responses and behaviors. I don't understand how that explanation would even be relevant to the question or your concern at all.
I'm just stuck on why you have waited so long to address this. I don't understand why you'd ever send your child back if indeed your child's provider admitted to you that all this really happened. If I actually believed my child's daycare provider spoke to and treated her that way there is no way I would have ever left her in the providers care again.
I am confused about what you're hoping to accomplish by talking with her. How does a sit down change that what she did was insanely inappropriate and unacceptable?? Even if she apologized do you really trust this womans judgement if that's how she responded to a simple and very normal tiff between toddlers?
My guess there is a sense of disbelief that their provider did this I also don't understand in your first post when you say this:
"I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions."
She supposedly targeted a small child, singled out your individual family to all families enrolled, humiliated and demeaned your child and then forced multiple other children to drink out of another child's cup...... You then you say she admitted to all that. If that's the case then how could her response to your concern be that her hands are tied due to regulations? How so? - because regulations strictly prohibit all of those responses and behaviors. I don't understand how that explanation would even be relevant to the question or your concern at all.
I'm just stuck on why you have waited so long to address this. I don't understand why you'd ever send your child back if indeed your child's provider admitted to you that all this really happened. If I actually believed my child's daycare provider spoke to and treated her that way there is no way I would have ever left her in the providers care again.
I am confused about what you're hoping to accomplish by talking with her. How does a sit down change that what she did was insanely inappropriate and unacceptable?? Even if she apologized do you really trust this womans judgement if that's how she responded to a simple and very normal tiff between toddlers?
and that op is looking for validation that this is NOT how things are normally handled by a competent provider.
gew95001 01:21 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
My guess there is a sense of disbelief that their provider did this and that op is looking for validation that this is NOT how things are normally handled by a competent provider.
Heidi - you hit that pretty close. It's hard to post this kind of thing because it's so much more complicated than is possible to write in even a couple of posts. We didn't find all of this out in one fell swoop. Information came in in trickles, some of it as late as yesterday afternoon. We also wondered if we were just overreacting. We didn't think so, but our grasp of the situation has gotten better, and now we definitely know we're not overreacting. My guess there is a sense of disbelief that their provider did this
and that op is looking for validation that this is NOT how things are normally handled by a competent provider.I understand Willow's comments - why would I bring my child back here? I made it very clear to the provider that this kind of singling out is not acceptable and it was not to happen again. The provider has agreed and agreed to meet to discuss it. I have no doubt that the provider will not do this again for the time being. The provider responds very differently to me than to my wife. Unfortunately, we're not in a position to just pull our kids out of daycare until we find another.
As for the "hands being tied due to regulations" - I meant that this is how she's responded to almost all feedback to her in the past. While I'm sure there are regulations forbidding this kind of thing, I have no idea where to find them - I simply don't know what the regulations say, so I'm trying to get ideas on how to respond to that kind of stance. I've contacted the Licensors, but have not heard back from them yet.
Willow asks another good question as to why I'm going to bother talking to her. We've already decided to remove our kids as soon as possible, but there are also the other kids to consider. We've known these kids for their entire lives, and I feel I have a responsibility to address the provider. I can't just email or call all the other parents (I don't have contact info for all of them), and honestly, if somebody called me with this I'd wonder what the other side of the story was. I think I have to either get the provider to understand the problem of what she's done and let the other parents know so they can make their own decision, or go to the state.
I'm sure I've left out some other key piece of information that will confuse somebody, so I apologize in advance.
Blackcat31 01:24 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
As for the "hands being tied due to regulations" - I meant that this is how she's responded to almost all feedback to her in the past. While I'm sure there are regulations forbidding this kind of thing, I have no idea where to find them - I simply don't know what the regulations say, so I'm trying to get ideas on how to respond to that kind of stance. I've contacted the Licensors, but have not heard back from them yet.
What state are you in? As for the "hands being tied due to regulations" - I meant that this is how she's responded to almost all feedback to her in the past. While I'm sure there are regulations forbidding this kind of thing, I have no idea where to find them - I simply don't know what the regulations say, so I'm trying to get ideas on how to respond to that kind of stance. I've contacted the Licensors, but have not heard back from them yet.
A provider here maybe able to point you in the right direction for finding your provider's licensing requirements.
In my state, we are required to give parents info on where EXACTLY to find our liscensing rules and regulations.
gew95001 01:28 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
What state are you in?
A provider here maybe able to point you in the right direction for finding your provider's licensing requirements.
In my state, we are required to give parents info on where EXACTLY to find our liscensing rules and regulations.
I'm in Massachusetts. I've contacted the EEC, but could only leave messages. I'm waiting for them to call me back.What state are you in?
A provider here maybe able to point you in the right direction for finding your provider's licensing requirements.
In my state, we are required to give parents info on where EXACTLY to find our liscensing rules and regulations.
Blackcat31 01:37 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
I'm in Massachusetts. I've contacted the EEC, but could only leave messages. I'm waiting for them to call me back.
Maybe this would help http://www.mass.gov/edu/birth-grade-...care-policies/I'm in Massachusetts. I've contacted the EEC, but could only leave messages. I'm waiting for them to call me back.
gew95001 01:41 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Maybe this would help http://www.mass.gov/edu/birth-grade-...care-policies/
Thank you. I found that earlier today, but I didn't see anything that applied to my situation. Nothing I could point to and say "that's the regulation". It could be that it's available somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.Maybe this would help http://www.mass.gov/edu/birth-grade-...care-policies/
Blackcat31 01:50 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
Thank you. I found that earlier today, but I didn't see anything that applied to my situation. Nothing I could point to and say "that's the regulation". It could be that it's available somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.
http://www.mass.gov/edu/birth-grade-...uirements.htmlThank you. I found that earlier today, but I didn't see anything that applied to my situation. Nothing I could point to and say "that's the regulation". It could be that it's available somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.
Well if it helps the guildeline in this link for cargivers in your state say:
•Educators must provide guidance to children in a positive and consistent way based on an understanding of the individual needs and development of children.
•Educators must direct child guidance to the goal of maximizing the growth and development of children and protecting the group and the individuals within it.
I think what she did most definitely went against BOTH those policies
Cat Herder 01:52 PM 03-01-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
Thank you. I found that earlier today, but I didn't see anything that applied to my situation. Nothing I could point to and say "that's the regulation". It could be that it's available somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.
Look at section P-EEC-09 (Complaints) AND Part 7.05 of the family childcare regulations. Thank you. I found that earlier today, but I didn't see anything that applied to my situation. Nothing I could point to and say "that's the regulation". It could be that it's available somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.
Edit: BC, you were doing the same.... sorry.
gew95001 02:04 PM 03-01-2013
Thank you BlackCat31 and Cat Herder - that led me to exactly what I needed!
The following practices are strictly prohibited:
(a) spanking or other corporal punishment of children;
(b) subjecting children to cruel or severe punishment such as humiliation, verbal or physical abuse, neglect, or abusive treatment including any type of physical hitting inflicted in any manner upon the body, shaking, threats, or derogatory remarks;
I really wanted something to point to if she again fell back on regulations. I really appreciate it!
The following practices are strictly prohibited:
(a) spanking or other corporal punishment of children;
(b) subjecting children to cruel or severe punishment such as humiliation, verbal or physical abuse, neglect, or abusive treatment including any type of physical hitting inflicted in any manner upon the body, shaking, threats, or derogatory remarks;
I really wanted something to point to if she again fell back on regulations. I really appreciate it!
bunnyslippers 02:07 PM 03-01-2013
(8) The following practices are strictly prohibited:
(a) spanking or other corporal punishment of children;
(b) subjecting children to cruel or severe punishment such as humiliation, verbal or physical abuse, neglect, or abusive treatment including any type of physical hitting inflicted in any manner upon the body, shaking, threats, or derogatory remarks;
(c) depriving children of outdoor time, meals or snacks; force feeding children or otherwise making them eat against their will, or in any way using food as a consequence;
(d) disciplining a child for soiling, wetting, or not using the toilet; forcing a child to remain in soiled clothing or to remain on the toilet, or using any other unusual or excessive practices for toileting;
(e) confining a child to a swing, high chair, crib, playpen or any other piece of equipment for an extended period of time in lieu of supervision; and
(f) excessive time-out. Time-out may not exceed one minute for each year of the child's age and must take place within an educator’s view.
This section is pulled directly from the EEC website, under the family child care regulations. It is section 7.05, #8, A-F.
I am a MA licensed provider, certified preschool teacher, and certified elementary and special education teacher. Everything that she did in this situation is against regulations. I would suggest an immediate call to licensing. Please make sure you have the email with the explanation of the incident from the provider included in your complaint.
I would be shut down if a report like this was made about my child care. If you would like to send me a PM with your location, I may be able to give you some contact information about reputable centers/preschools in our state.
Email EEC. They list the licensors by area on the website. Sometimes it is easier to reach them that way. And, from personal experience, keep calling! Squeaky wheel gets the grease ~
(a) spanking or other corporal punishment of children;
(b) subjecting children to cruel or severe punishment such as humiliation, verbal or physical abuse, neglect, or abusive treatment including any type of physical hitting inflicted in any manner upon the body, shaking, threats, or derogatory remarks;
(c) depriving children of outdoor time, meals or snacks; force feeding children or otherwise making them eat against their will, or in any way using food as a consequence;
(d) disciplining a child for soiling, wetting, or not using the toilet; forcing a child to remain in soiled clothing or to remain on the toilet, or using any other unusual or excessive practices for toileting;
(e) confining a child to a swing, high chair, crib, playpen or any other piece of equipment for an extended period of time in lieu of supervision; and
(f) excessive time-out. Time-out may not exceed one minute for each year of the child's age and must take place within an educator’s view.
This section is pulled directly from the EEC website, under the family child care regulations. It is section 7.05, #8, A-F.
I am a MA licensed provider, certified preschool teacher, and certified elementary and special education teacher. Everything that she did in this situation is against regulations. I would suggest an immediate call to licensing. Please make sure you have the email with the explanation of the incident from the provider included in your complaint.
I would be shut down if a report like this was made about my child care. If you would like to send me a PM with your location, I may be able to give you some contact information about reputable centers/preschools in our state.
Email EEC. They list the licensors by area on the website. Sometimes it is easier to reach them that way. And, from personal experience, keep calling! Squeaky wheel gets the grease ~
itlw8 03:10 PM 03-01-2013
I would print out those emails and report this. It is wrong just plain wrong. Tell the person you talk to that you have her email stating that it is true. and forward it to them.
gew95001 09:10 AM 03-03-2013
So, the meeting with the provider is off. She sent an email to me this morning telling me that because of my email regarding her behavior she was ending service immediately. So not only will she not meet with us, she gave us less than 24 hours notice. We've got several appointments with other providers set up, and with some help from relatives we're not in dire straights, but I feel she's been highly unprofessional in all of this.
Blackcat31 09:33 AM 03-03-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
So, the meeting with the provider is off. She sent an email to me this morning telling me that because of my email regarding her behavior she was ending service immediately. So not only will she not meet with us, she gave us less than 24 hours notice. We've got several appointments with other providers set up, and with some help from relatives we're not in dire straights, but I feel she's been highly unprofessional in all of this.
Sounds to me like she terminated because she KNEW you were right and her behavior was unexcusable. I definitely feel you should file a complaint so that this does not happen to others. So, the meeting with the provider is off. She sent an email to me this morning telling me that because of my email regarding her behavior she was ending service immediately. So not only will she not meet with us, she gave us less than 24 hours notice. We've got several appointments with other providers set up, and with some help from relatives we're not in dire straights, but I feel she's been highly unprofessional in all of this.
I really do hope you are able to find alternate care and good for you for being a parent who tries to communicate openly with your provider. Even if this one didn't take too kindly too it.
gew95001 04:48 PM 03-03-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Sounds to me like she terminated because she KNEW you were right and her behavior was unexcusable. I definitely feel you should file a complaint so that this does not happen to others.
I really do hope you are able to find alternate care and good for you for being a parent who tries to communicate openly with your provider. Even if this one didn't take too kindly too it.
I'll be filing a complaint tomorrow morning. I was hoping to talk to the provider and perhaps get her to understand how wrong what she was doing was - more so to help the parents who will still be there than us - we'd already decided to move our daughters elsewhere.Sounds to me like she terminated because she KNEW you were right and her behavior was unexcusable. I definitely feel you should file a complaint so that this does not happen to others.
I really do hope you are able to find alternate care and good for you for being a parent who tries to communicate openly with your provider. Even if this one didn't take too kindly too it.
To all who responded: Thank you! I know you must regularly read posts and wonder what the other side of the story is - I'm not one for drama and I told everything as accurately as I could. I appreciate all the suggestions and help.
Starburst 06:11 PM 03-03-2013
Originally Posted by gew95001:
I recently received word from our daycare provider (family daycare) that our daughter had tried to take a toy from another child (both are 3 year olds). The other child wouldn't let go and my daughter pulled him over.
Initially the daycare provider told us that she was working on the behavior, and asked us to talk to our daughter, both of which are perfectly reasonable. However, later that day an email went out to all parents explaining that one of the children was bullying others and they'd had a lesson about bullying. As we found out more, the lesson turned out to be our daughter being sat down and being forced to listen to the daycare provider explain to the other 3-year-olds that she was a bully and not a good friend. The provider then went and got our daughters juice cup from the fridge and made another child drink all the juice while our child had to watch to teach her a lesson.
To me this seems to go far beyond what should happen in this kind of situation. I have a hard time accepting that a 3 year old taking a toy could rise to the level of "bullying". I found the discussion part of it extreme and can't imagine making a 3-year-old sit and listen to herself be criticized this way.
I am all for teaching kids that bullying is wrong and I actually plan on having an Anti-bully curriculum but that was extreamly inappropriate on the provider's part I recently received word from our daycare provider (family daycare) that our daughter had tried to take a toy from another child (both are 3 year olds). The other child wouldn't let go and my daughter pulled him over.
Initially the daycare provider told us that she was working on the behavior, and asked us to talk to our daughter, both of which are perfectly reasonable. However, later that day an email went out to all parents explaining that one of the children was bullying others and they'd had a lesson about bullying. As we found out more, the lesson turned out to be our daughter being sat down and being forced to listen to the daycare provider explain to the other 3-year-olds that she was a bully and not a good friend. The provider then went and got our daughters juice cup from the fridge and made another child drink all the juice while our child had to watch to teach her a lesson.
To me this seems to go far beyond what should happen in this kind of situation. I have a hard time accepting that a 3 year old taking a toy could rise to the level of "bullying". I found the discussion part of it extreme and can't imagine making a 3-year-old sit and listen to herself be criticized this way.
. Part of preventing bullying is modeling good behavior- humiliation is a form of emotional bullying. On one level I understand she is trying to help her understand that she hurts people with her actions but this is over the line. I can understand telling kids that 'a bully is not a good friend' and 'no one wants a friend that is a bully' but pointing her out and labling her infront of everyone is so wrong! Her execution of this lession was all wrong! If anything the teacher is the bully and teaching other kids how to become bullies by making her feel bad about herself and taking advantage of that situation. That should have been a private issue between her, your daughter, you, the other child, and possibly the child's parents at most- confidentiality.Also once in a while kids will do things they shouldn't do but that doesn't make them a bully- they just need to be redirected and reminded that behavior is not tolerated (maybe a time out or a loss of a privilage). In fact, a bully lession should be given BEFORE a major insident occurres and given on a regular bases as well as without pointing anyone out.
I classify a true bully as someone who repeditively targets or harms others on purpose. Labling a child as a 'bad child' or a 'bully' infront of them like that and others will actually INCREASE there chances of becoming a 'bully' because they live up to the labels that adults give them. Also to children that young, if an adult says something they assume it is true. I would tell the teacher I want her to apoligize to my daughter for singling her out and I would seriously file a complaint.
The provider obviously needs a bully lession too Lession one: "To murder character is as truly a crime as to murder the body: the tongue of the slanderer is brother to the dagger of the assassin”
Sorry for the vent but I used to get bullied alot in elementry school and the vice principle threatened to have me suspended and tell the real principle and my mom multiple times for fighting. I was being kicked in the shin, having my hair pulled, and having stuff thrown at me every day at recess (3 times a day) if I didn't do cartwheels for a group of boys; I was also having my clothes pulled on and hair pulled by another boy on the school bus- he even gave me a black eye once. And then I had the vice principle threatening me because I was trying to defend myself?! Its not like the yard duty people were really doing anything. I think sometimes the teachers make bullying worse by punishing the wrong child, giving the wrong punishment, or assuming one side of the story when they were not there.
crazydaycarelady 08:46 AM 03-05-2013
The providers reaction to the original incident was a severe overreaction imho. The child should have had a couple of minutes in time-out and then it would have been over had it happened at my dc.
KnoxMom 10:58 AM 03-05-2013
Am I the only one who is hung up on the fact that she had another child drink out of someone else's cup? Huge sanitary issue there. Minus the terrible use of humiliation with expectations of teaching a lesson. Hurts my heart to know there are providers like this. Still, you need to have a real conversation to get to the bottom of the issue. She should be wanting to meet ASAP or else we can assume she has no idea how inappropriate her behavior is.
saved4always 02:52 PM 03-05-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
In my state that would be considered unacceptable and would fall under discipline that was humiliating, shameful and/or not developmentally approriate.
I would remove my child IMMEDIATELY from care.
This is unacceptable in our state, too. I would remove my child from care, too, if this was used as "discipline".In my state that would be considered unacceptable and would fall under discipline that was humiliating, shameful and/or not developmentally approriate.
I would remove my child IMMEDIATELY from care.
bunnyslippers 04:24 PM 03-05-2013
The OP did remove his daughter from the daycare. He has also filed a complaint with EEC.
gew95001 06:59 PM 03-05-2013
Bunnyslippers is correct, my daughters are no longer in the daycare, and I did file a complaint with the EEC today. I included all the emails, which, after reviewing, the licensor said were very helpful in explaining my concerns.
One thing I did not mention yet (besides to Bunnyslippers) is that we have found out the provider has not been refrigerating our 17-month-old daughter's formula (we provide medically prescribed pre-mixed formula). This was caught in a spot-check by the food program. She DID at least leave it in the insulated bag (with ice-pack) we used to keep it cool on the way to daycare, so at least there was that, but it was only mildly cool by the end of the day.
I'm hoping that the EEC forces her to get some training, or at least get her to realize the problems with what she did. Thank you again to all who provided advice - it was greatly appreciated.
Edit: I also meant to mention that we've found another daycare for our daughters, and they'll start there on Monday. My 3-year-old had a great time on our visit there and seemed to really enjoy playing with the new provider's son (who is about the same age).
One thing I did not mention yet (besides to Bunnyslippers) is that we have found out the provider has not been refrigerating our 17-month-old daughter's formula (we provide medically prescribed pre-mixed formula). This was caught in a spot-check by the food program. She DID at least leave it in the insulated bag (with ice-pack) we used to keep it cool on the way to daycare, so at least there was that, but it was only mildly cool by the end of the day.
I'm hoping that the EEC forces her to get some training, or at least get her to realize the problems with what she did. Thank you again to all who provided advice - it was greatly appreciated.
Edit: I also meant to mention that we've found another daycare for our daughters, and they'll start there on Monday. My 3-year-old had a great time on our visit there and seemed to really enjoy playing with the new provider's son (who is about the same age).
Babybear911 02:13 PM 04-22-2013
Two sides to every story but have to say that if this really went down as you mentioned it is seriously unexceptable behavior! I've been a daycare provider for 6+ years and that is the most obsurd, bully tactic i have ever heard from the caregiver!! I would leave daycare ASAP! No child deserves to be spoken to or treated that way. Your childcare provider sounds like they need to quit job as daycare provider and you should report the daycare provider. Mental abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse! I bet your child doesn't feel safe in that house! Blah!
Originally Posted by gew95001:
I recently received word from our daycare provider (family daycare) that our daughter had tried to take a toy from another child (both are 3 year olds). The other child wouldn't let go and my daughter pulled him over.
Initially the daycare provider told us that she was working on the behavior, and asked us to talk to our daughter, both of which are perfectly reasonable. However, later that day an email went out to all parents explaining that one of the children was bullying others and they'd had a lesson about bullying. As we found out more, the lesson turned out to be our daughter being sat down and being forced to listen to the daycare provider explain to the other 3-year-olds that she was a bully and not a good friend. The provider then went and got our daughters juice cup from the fridge and made another child drink all the juice while our child had to watch to teach her a lesson.
To me this seems to go far beyond what should happen in this kind of situation. I have a hard time accepting that a 3 year old taking a toy could rise to the level of "bullying". I found the discussion part of it extreme and can't imagine making a 3-year-old sit and listen to herself be criticized this way.
I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions.
I recently received word from our daycare provider (family daycare) that our daughter had tried to take a toy from another child (both are 3 year olds). The other child wouldn't let go and my daughter pulled him over.
Initially the daycare provider told us that she was working on the behavior, and asked us to talk to our daughter, both of which are perfectly reasonable. However, later that day an email went out to all parents explaining that one of the children was bullying others and they'd had a lesson about bullying. As we found out more, the lesson turned out to be our daughter being sat down and being forced to listen to the daycare provider explain to the other 3-year-olds that she was a bully and not a good friend. The provider then went and got our daughters juice cup from the fridge and made another child drink all the juice while our child had to watch to teach her a lesson.
To me this seems to go far beyond what should happen in this kind of situation. I have a hard time accepting that a 3 year old taking a toy could rise to the level of "bullying". I found the discussion part of it extreme and can't imagine making a 3-year-old sit and listen to herself be criticized this way.
I've already written an email to the provider and we'll have a meeting early next week. This provider usually answers feedback with answers that her hands are tied due to regulations. I've already got some ideas on how to counter that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions.
Cradle2crayons 06:34 PM 04-22-2013
I wondered if there is any update to this post? Any word on the results of the investigation??
In my home and daycare we have a lesson every month on bullying. My child was a victim of it in school. She talks to the kids about how it made her feel, she tells them she reported it, and what happened afterwards.
We do role-playing scenarios and talk about feelings etc.
But again, I also agree that what that provider did was simply horrible and I hope, if all that was true, she got what she deserved.. Regardless of what that was.
In my home and daycare we have a lesson every month on bullying. My child was a victim of it in school. She talks to the kids about how it made her feel, she tells them she reported it, and what happened afterwards.
We do role-playing scenarios and talk about feelings etc.
But again, I also agree that what that provider did was simply horrible and I hope, if all that was true, she got what she deserved.. Regardless of what that was.
AmyKidsCo 08:53 PM 04-22-2013
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
She admitted to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend? Not addressing the behavior... actually labeling the child a bully to the group.
OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
I totally agree. The way she handled it was way out of line and not helpful for your child or any of the children in her care.She admitted to actually have called the child a bully and bad friend?
Not addressing the behavior... actually labeling the child a bully to the group. OK, that would have me very upset. If that is true I would not take her back.
File a complaint. She will be forced into training and more oversight. If she refuses, she will be shut down.
gew95001 05:06 PM 05-01-2013
Sorry for the wait for the update. We finally got word as to the results of the investigation. The Provider was cited for several things, including the bullying "talk" etc. Pretty much everything I had filed the complaint on (plus one other we weren't even aware of). The things that helped the most were the actual emails from the Provider and the one's that I had sent them.
Our daughters are doing extremely well at the new daycare. They are noticeably happier, and the Provider there says they are absolutely wonderfully behaved. She told us that she is only seeing age-appropriate behavior and nothing she is at all concerned about.
I don't believe, based on how much happier our daughters are, that there weren't other problems going on in the daycare. I guess the lesson learned for other parents reading this is that if you suspect there is a problem or issue with your daycare that you should follow up on it - you may be right, and it may be important for your child. I can't imagine our children continuing at the daycare we had the problem with.
Our daughters are doing extremely well at the new daycare. They are noticeably happier, and the Provider there says they are absolutely wonderfully behaved. She told us that she is only seeing age-appropriate behavior and nothing she is at all concerned about.
I don't believe, based on how much happier our daughters are, that there weren't other problems going on in the daycare. I guess the lesson learned for other parents reading this is that if you suspect there is a problem or issue with your daycare that you should follow up on it - you may be right, and it may be important for your child. I can't imagine our children continuing at the daycare we had the problem with.
gew95001 07:27 PM 05-09-2013
So I got a copy of the report from the State today. I have to give the Daycare Provider credit, in that she did not lie to the investigator. She admitted sitting all the children down and explaining that our daughter was a bully and not a good friend. She also admitted forcing another child to drink our daughter's juice in front of her, though she now claims it was because our daughter hid the other child's socks (?). In addition, she admitted she had not been refrigerating our other daughter's formula. She was cited for all three, and one other. Unknown to us, she had forwarded some of our email to another parent, so she was cited for violating privacy.
I told our new provider about the results and she was glad the other Provider had been cited. She has been taking care of our daughters for about 2 months now and doesn't see any problem behavior. Our 3-year-old loves it there, and there's a clear difference in how she feels about being there. We definitely are in a much better place now. Thank you for all the comments and advice!
I told our new provider about the results and she was glad the other Provider had been cited. She has been taking care of our daughters for about 2 months now and doesn't see any problem behavior. Our 3-year-old loves it there, and there's a clear difference in how she feels about being there. We definitely are in a much better place now. Thank you for all the comments and advice!
Olechka 05:33 PM 05-17-2013
Today, bullying is talked about everywhere in the US. I would complain to the state department of social services. This is totally inappropriate on her part.