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  #1  
Old 01-19-2018, 05:39 PM
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Unhappy Substitute Not Approved by Licensing

Hello! When I picked my children up this week, our provider was absent and her adult son was caring for the children. There was a note on the door saying that she had a doctor's appt and that her son would be there. It was the first time I had seen the note, but I very well may have missed it the day before.

I called the county agency in charge of licensing to check if he is an approved substitute (with a background check and other requirements) and he is not. The county said this is very concerning and is going to investigate it as a complaint.

For a variety of other reasons (our 4 and 2 y.o. children being punched and bitten by other children, learning swear words, etc), we had given our four weeks notice the prior Friday and had planned to pay all four weeks even though we were moving our children to new care after two weeks.

However, after this development, we decided to remove our children immediately. We don't feel that we should have to pay for the remaining 3 weeks if she is violating licensing requirements. Am I correct?

Thanks!
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:21 PM
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What does the contract/policies state about her using a substitute?
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:33 PM
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What does the contract/policies state about her using a substitute?
To be honest, I don't know. We misplaced our copy, have requested a new one, and she has not given us a copy yet.

I guess I'm wondering if she is found to be in violation of state statutes regarding supervision of children in a licensed home daycare (and we do have documentation/proof of that) whether we are correct in thinking that our contract with her for "licensed" care should be void?
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:00 PM
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To be honest, I don't know. We misplaced our copy, have requested a new one, and she has not given us a copy yet.

I guess I'm wondering if she is found to be in violation of state statutes regarding supervision of children in a licensed home daycare (and we do have documentation/proof of that) whether we are correct in thinking that our contract with her for "licensed" care should be void?
I donít think it would be void. Licensed homes and centers alike have inspections all the time and many times they will get written up for something relatively minor.. not having a cover on the garbage.. not having paper towels available etc. etc. They might get a violation and in more serious cases a fine but that doesnít change the fact that they provided a service and you agreed to pay for it. I would pay the 4 weeks you owe and move on as I donít think you would have much ground to stand on in not paying the monies owed. She could get a fine from licensing though.

That being said I would never leave my daycare kids alone with anyone approved or not without informing parents aside from a true emergency. Thatís just bad business on her part.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:25 PM
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I have to mail in forms before having a sub. That doesn't mean that the forms have made it through the stack of paperwork on my licensor's desk and into my file before I have a sub though.....

So it's possible that this was legit.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
To be honest, I don't know. We misplaced our copy, have requested a new one, and she has not given us a copy yet.

I guess I'm wondering if she is found to be in violation of state statutes regarding supervision of children in a licensed home daycare (and we do have documentation/proof of that) whether we are correct in thinking that our contract with her for "licensed" care should be void?
I don't think so, because she's still licensed. She may have a violation but that doesn't cause her to be unlicensed.

I believe you'd have a more solid leg to stand on if her contract states something like "in my absence one of my substitutes, registered with the appropriate licensing agency, will fill in for me". Even then you're taking a risk by not paying because you did sign the contract too and are obligated to pay the remaining weeks ... two wrongs don't make a right kind of thing.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:32 PM
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I would argue that you signed up with her because she was licensed and under the impression that she was running her daycare legally. That you enrolled your child under the guise the the provider would be watching your children, not someone else much less someone that isn't approved as a substitute. I would emphasize that the provider was operating against licensing regulations.

I'm in CA and in my state this would be a type A violation with the possibility of having her license suspended and/or revoked.

EDITED to add: Ask about CPR certifications also, leaving an adult that didn't have certifications would be a separate violation on top of having a non background checked person watching the kids. Here that would be another Type A (worse you can get)
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Old 01-24-2018, 07:06 AM
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Default Sub not approved...

In my state anyone living in the household of a licensed daycare has to be on file when initially setting up the daycare license. So I guess the question would be if the son is over 18- then they would have had to have done a background check on him as well which would make him legit. It depends on your state laws.
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Old 01-24-2018, 07:14 AM
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I am in MN and this would not be okay.

ANY caregiver, emergency or regular substitute is required to have background checks and certain trainings BEFORE providing direct care/supervision for the children.

However, as a previous poster stated, two wrongs do not make a right.

Because you had already submitted a notice of withdrawal, I kind of get the feeling you are purposely looking for something that would let you "off the hook" for having to pay the final weeks of care and that the money thing is the real issue but I might just be jaded. However, my suggestion would be to remove your child immediately (which you have already), pay the remainder of the notice period, report the provider to licensing for not having an approved back up provider AND then file in small claims court to have your money refunded due to the provider's actions that caused you to no longer feel safe leaving your child thus not being able to use the final services in which you paid for according to the contract you signed.

Doing things that way shows you understand and agree to follow the contract you signed and the provider is int eh wrong. You complicate things and make it dramatic when it comes to just not paying because you think you found a "loop hole" in the contract....just pay it, and then sue her for the money back. What's the difference other than you have to be the one that waits for the refund?
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:25 AM
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I feel I should chime in, as my regulations do differ from those who have already posted. I am located in WV. My regs specify (as a Family Child Care Home Provider) that I may use a substitute under the attached circumstances.

It does not specify any trainings, background check requirements, etc. Merely that parents must be notified in advance of using a substitute and the time-frame limits providers must abide by. Of course, household members (such as my husband, who serves as my primary back up) must undergo background checks, as well. But that is a difference to consider. Essentially, it was explained to me that back ups are considered to be my responsibility and fall under my discretion. They are ultimately serving under my license, and any offenses will hold ME liable, even in my absence.

Of course, insurance liabilities and each individual contract my say otherwise. And the fact remains that you should have been informed in any case...
Iíd pay, and as BC suggested, pursue small claims for reimbursement if you do feel that you are owed the monies paid. A service was rendered, so it probably isnít in your best interest to try to skip out, otherwise, the provider may hold YOU liable, and youíll have to potentially pay fees and court costs, too.

Just my .02 cents!
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:08 PM
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I was told pretty much the same thing by my licensing consultant. A backup is somebody that is not regularly employed, but used very very occasionally, like if you have a doctor's appointment once a year and are in need of a sub or in case of an emergency.

A daycare assistant is someone that you use frequently and they need to have all of the rules and regulations met with background check, medical clearance, etcetera.

Of course, I'm sure, every state is different. It seems to be the common advice ..check your licensing to see what applies
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Old 02-07-2018, 08:09 PM
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Well to be respectful of the working woman who was taking care of my children, i would pay her. But thats just me.

BUT yes you don't want your kids in a place that doesn't have trained providers taking care of your children. When you look again id make sure they have all their credentials on the wall when i walk in and that they are a person thats proud to share the information about them being licensed. A provider that seems to even be a little bit of a stickler for the state rules, references them. Those people won't break any of them.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChelseaB View Post
I feel I should chime in, as my regulations do differ from those who have already posted. I am located in WV. My regs specify (as a Family Child Care Home Provider) that I may use a substitute under the attached circumstances.

It does not specify any trainings, background check requirements, etc. Merely that parents must be notified in advance of using a substitute and the time-frame limits providers must abide by. Of course, household members (such as my husband, who serves as my primary back up) must undergo background checks, as well. But that is a difference to consider. Essentially, it was explained to me that back ups are considered to be my responsibility and fall under my discretion. They are ultimately serving under my license, and any offenses will hold ME liable, even in my absence.

Of course, insurance liabilities and each individual contract my say otherwise. And the fact remains that you should have been informed in any case...
Iíd pay, and as BC suggested, pursue small claims for reimbursement if you do feel that you are owed the monies paid. A service was rendered, so it probably isnít in your best interest to try to skip out, otherwise, the provider may hold YOU liable, and youíll have to potentially pay fees and court costs, too.

Just my .02 cents!
My state was like yours until recently. The change has ensured that we can no longer even find subs for our daycares. Has it benefited parents? My clients don't feel that it has. Rather than having a sub pop in for 2 hours while I go to the dentist, parents now have to take an afternoon of vacation from work every time I have an appointment or they have to find another childcare for their child for an entire afternoon or day because I had to spend an hour at the dentist.

Parents are FRUSTRATED at this new regulation because it has taken the power away from them and from me in choosing a sub and the parents choosing who cares for their children, and is requiring them to spend more money, more vacation time, and more of their personal time arranging care for their children when they used to have a trusted, SAHM (whom their kids had a relationship with already) who cared for their kids in my absence.

The regs are getting out of control. There really is no reason for a sub to spend 10 hours on training to spend an hour with my kids. It used to be a CPR/FIRST AID card and a background check were all that were needed. Now, it's a hassle that no one is willing to deal with.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
My state was like yours until recently. The change has ensured that we can no longer even find subs for our daycares. Has it benefited parents? My clients don't feel that it has. Rather than having a sub pop in for 2 hours while I go to the dentist, parents now have to take an afternoon of vacation from work every time I have an appointment or they have to find another childcare for their child for an entire afternoon or day because I had to spend an hour at the dentist.

Parents are FRUSTRATED at this new regulation because it has taken the power away from them and from me in choosing a sub and the parents choosing who cares for their children, and is requiring them to spend more money, more vacation time, and more of their personal time arranging care for their children when they used to have a trusted, SAHM (whom their kids had a relationship with already) who cared for their kids in my absence.

The regs are getting out of control. There really is no reason for a sub to spend 10 hours on training to spend an hour with my kids. It used to be a CPR/FIRST AID card and a background check were all that were needed. Now, it's a hassle that no one is willing to deal with.
I have had to find a dentist that was open on Saturday's so I'm not having to close as our regs recently changed also. I usually only go to the doctor once a year and eye doctor so I try and schedule those both on the same day before leaving for my vacation.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:03 PM
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I have had to find a dentist that was open on Saturday's so I'm not having to close as our regs recently changed also. I usually only go to the doctor once a year and eye doctor so I try and schedule those both on the same day before leaving for my vacation.
Our dentists aren't even open on Fridays here! The ONE pediatric dentist in town closes at 2:30PM M-TH and never opens on Fridays. I have 11 prescriptions that I can't get refilled because my new PCP is the evening and weekend walk-in clinic (they don't write scripts for more than 30 days or refill maintenance meds). I just can't take 2-5 days a month off work to go to the clinic!

Between my child and I, there's a lot of missed work for appointments and it shouldn't have to be that way. I have several people who are willing and able to sub (2 of them pediatric nurses!), but the state won't allow it, and they aren't willing to go through the ridiculous training to do me a favor my sitting at my home during nap time.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
My state was like yours until recently. The change has ensured that we can no longer even find subs for our daycares. Has it benefited parents? My clients don't feel that it has. Rather than having a sub pop in for 2 hours while I go to the dentist, parents now have to take an afternoon of vacation from work every time I have an appointment or they have to find another childcare for their child for an entire afternoon or day because I had to spend an hour at the dentist.

Parents are FRUSTRATED at this new regulation because it has taken the power away from them and from me in choosing a sub and the parents choosing who cares for their children, and is requiring them to spend more money, more vacation time, and more of their personal time arranging care for their children when they used to have a trusted, SAHM (whom their kids had a relationship with already) who cared for their kids in my absence.

The regs are getting out of control. There really is no reason for a sub to spend 10 hours on training to spend an hour with my kids. It used to be a CPR/FIRST AID card and a background check were all that were needed. Now, it's a hassle that no one is willing to deal with.
Oh my word, that sounds chaotic! To be 100% honest, I would not be surprised if a change like that occurs in WV sooner rather than later. Legislature has been uprooting everything, especially concerning our schools, daycares, etc! I can understand some changes, but it is nearly impossible to find someone willing to undergo those stipulations just to sub occasionally! This is one of the many reasons I decided pretty much from the beginning to upgrade into a facility so that my ratio may increase. I plan to fill the 6 full time slots (what I can have with just me), but I will only allow for 2-3 part timers (although I can have 12 kiddos with an assistant). And potentially a part time worker to fill in. Of course, thatís a different circumstance, where they will require more trainings, but theyíd be working regularly and would be more willing to undergo trainings and other requirements! I too hate closing for appointments and such, itís a pain for the parents and myself!
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