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Old 02-03-2011, 04:26 PM
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Angry Can A Group Daycare In WI Keep Child Inside As Punishment?

Can a group daycare in Wisconsin keep a child inside as punishment? Today my child wasn't allowed to go outside because his teacher said he was being naughty and wasn't listening. She did not give him a timeout first - which cannot be longer than 5 minutes under licensing in WI. It's been cold and snowy here, so my child didn't get to outside yesterday or today. This afternoon would have been his only opporunity to go outside in 2 days. As punishment, she didn't allow him to go outside with his class. He was made to sit by himself at a table for more than 10 minutes while another teacher was teaching a class in the corner. He would have been there longer had I not picked him up when I did. The directors were not there today and I plan to discuss this incident with them tomorrow. The teacher said she didn't know that what she was doing violates outside policies and guidance/timeout policies.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:19 PM
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Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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How old is your child? Without more specific information it is really difficult to know for sure.

This is what I found on your states site:

EARLY YEARS ARE LEARNING YEARS

Time out for "timeout"

The purpose of discipline for young children is to teach coping skills and discourage
inappropriate behavior. "Timeout" is not a first choice, but a last resort technique for a
child who is harming another or in danger of harming herself. Used infrequently and for
very brief periods (no longer than two or three minutes), timeout may give a child the
opportunity to calm down and cool off after a frustrating situation. Used often or
inappropriately, timeout may not only be ineffectual it may be damaging to the child.
The early years are a time for children to develop confidence and self-control. When
adults create environments that respect each individual child, they set forth a message
that the world is a warm, friendly learning place. Positive discipline techniques that
combine caring and direction are a part of this healthy environment. Adults should look
for meaningful ways to show children why harmful and aggressive acts are
unacceptable.
Before you give a child timeout, make sure of the
following:
„h Adults avoid using timeout for infants and toddlers. Very young children should
not be isolated, nor should they be ignored or left without proper stimulation.
Infants or young toddlers who do not understand why their behavior is
unacceptable should gently be directed to more acceptable behaviors or
activities.
„h Your expectations of a child's behavior are realistic. A general knowledge of child
development will help you identify when children are merely experimenting with
their boundaries and when they are behaving inappropriately. When adults give
children realistic goals, children feel good about themselves and are more likely
to cope successfully with stressful situations.
„h Consequences immediately follow the child's behavior. When children
experience immediate repercussions for harming others, they understand more
clearly why we are disciplining them. Whenever possible, adults should offer
children positive alternatives to their actions (asking a child to help rebuild a
block structure she has knocked down is more productive than removing her
from the area entirely).
„h Timeout should not be humiliating, nor should it make children feel threatened or
afraid. There should not be a special chair or area assigned for timeout this
reinforces the idea that timeout is a punishment and may cause undue anxiety.
Adults should never make a child feel ridiculed or isolated during timeout periods.
„h The child should not be left alone, unless he wants to be. Young children need
adults' support to work out their feelings. If adults show children that their feelings
count, they will be more likely to respect the feelings of others. A caregiver
should always visually observe a child during a timeout period.
„h Time out does not last longer than it takes for the child to calm down. After the
child calms down, explain clearly what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior.
There
should be no ambiguity about why we have disciplined the child, otherwise the
child is more likely to repeat the undesirable behavior.
„h The child feels safe with the knowledge that people care for her. Remember that
children imitate adults' behavior. Screaming, hitting, or ridiculing a child for bad
behavior is not an effective way to teach self-control.
„h Tailor the method of discipline to the individual child. Children develop their
abilities to control themselves at different rates. Take into consideration the
needs of the particular child involved. No single technique will work with every
child every time. Timeout is not used as a punishment. Timeout is an opportunity
for a child to clear her mind and rejoin the group or activity in a more productive
state. Teach a child how to solve her own problems with love and support, and
timeout may no longer be necessart

Last edited by Cat Herder; 02-03-2011 at 07:45 PM. Reason: adding
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:13 PM
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i don't know if it's "allowed" but if it were me i would've taken him outside and he would've sat in "time out" while out there. i think it's greater punishment to watch your friends play than to be left inside while they play.

what did he do?

if they haven't been outside in several days, it could be that he had lost five minutes play time on monday but they didn't get to go out. then, he lost five minutes play time on tuesday but they didn't get to go out. so - on wednesday when they did get to go out, he was made to "serve" his ten minutes. i dunno, i'm just speculating.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:20 PM
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I greatly dislike withholding physical activity as punishment because frequently what the child needs is physical activity. I'm not sure if there is anything about withholiding outside time as punishment in WI (there isn't anything here in ND) but it's definately not a good policy. I actually have the kids in my care do physical activity if their behavior is not acceptable. I'll have them jump up and down, do jumping jacks, log rolls, helicopters, crawl on the floor, ect. to get some energy out and especially cross-lateral movement which gets the brain exercised and then the behavior is usually gone.

Good luck with your conference with the director.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Can a group daycare in Wisconsin keep a child inside as punishment? Today my child wasn't allowed to go outside because his teacher said he was being naughty and wasn't listening. She did not give him a timeout first - which cannot be longer than 5 minutes under licensing in WI. It's been cold and snowy here, so my child didn't get to outside yesterday or today. This afternoon would have been his only opporunity to go outside in 2 days. As punishment, she didn't allow him to go outside with his class. He was made to sit by himself at a table for more than 10 minutes while another teacher was teaching a class in the corner. He would have been there longer had I not picked him up when I did. The directors were not there today and I plan to discuss this incident with them tomorrow. The teacher said she didn't know that what she was doing violates outside policies and guidance/timeout policies.
There is nothing wrong with punishing him from outside if he was misbehaving. Schools do it to if the child misbehaves they lose so many minutes of recess as they should. A child needs a punishment for misbehaving.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:06 AM
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I agree with Mrs. KY 100%.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:13 AM
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Children need to be able to go outside. I'm not sure if it's against the regulations, but as PP said, it's not a good policy. If his misbehavior was right before they were going outside, then a time-out (1 minute per years old) outside would be appropriate. And then he should be allowed to play outside for the remainder of time. If his misbehavior was earlier in the day, then outside time has nothing to do with it and he should have been given a time out immediately.

I would definitely talk to the director about this. Punishments that are completely unconnected to the misbehavior generally do not work and teaches children to lie and sneak and hide things to avoid punishment.

For children that misbehave regularly (and I'm not suggesting at all that your child is a child who does misbehave regularly) NEED outside time as much or MORE than other children. It's important for children to be able to move and exercise their bodies, be in the fresh air and experience outside stimuli. I can't understand a punishment that includes no outside time, it really could just lead to further misbehavior.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendallina View Post
Children need to be able to go outside. I'm not sure if it's against the regulations, but as PP said, it's not a good policy. If his misbehavior was right before they were going outside, then a time-out (1 minute per years old) outside would be appropriate. And then he should be allowed to play outside for the remainder of time. If his misbehavior was earlier in the day, then outside time has nothing to do with it and he should have been given a time out immediately.

I would definitely talk to the director about this. Punishments that are completely unconnected to the misbehavior generally do not work and teaches children to lie and sneak and hide things to avoid punishment.

For children that misbehave regularly (and I'm not suggesting at all that your child is a child who does misbehave regularly) NEED outside time as much or MORE than other children. It's important for children to be able to move and exercise their bodies, be in the fresh air and experience outside stimuli. I can't understand a punishment that includes no outside time, it really could just lead to further misbehavior.
Totally this, ESPECIALLY the part about misbehaving children often being the ones who need the physical activity the most.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:50 AM
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Hmmm...well, it really does depend on how old he is, what he did, and how often he does it. If he's two years old, thats out of line, 3 is questionable depending on the circumstances, and completely acceptable for a 4 year old.

Plus, I gotta ask...you don't seem to concerned that your child is misbehaving. Are you more concerned about what he gets or doesn't get to do or what kind of person he grows in to?

If one of my kids tells me that the didn't get recess at school, my first question is WHAT DID YOU DO? Then I add and additional punishment to whatever the teacher gave them. I want respectful kids who follow the rules. Its a life lesson thing.
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:01 AM
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I don't have enough info regarding what his behaviors are that would cause them to make this decision. I know when my ds was a new five year old in Kindy that they used recess as a punishment for misbehavior. Anyone can argue that at any age that the kids need to be outside BUT

Because schools and child care and pretty much stripped of any kinds of consequences and punishments that actually WORK then I can see them using whatever currency they can legally do to try to get the behaviors to stop.

One key element in discipline is making sure the Center understands that should the methods they use that are sanctioned by you do NOT work in stopping the behavior that YOU will come immediately and take the child out of care for whatever time it takes for YOU to get the behavior in check.

You never want your kid to be behaving badly in public. You must always be aware that there are others in the group and their happiness, safety, and the businesses profitability is of utmost importance. It's much more important than a single recess for a preschooler.

Let them know that you will come to deal with his behavior and that if you should have to remove him for whatever length of time for you to be successful that you will pay them fully for his slot.

With THAT kind of parental involvement you will see they will be happy to have YOU be the ultimate consequence should their techniques not work. As long as you come QUICKLY and every time they call they will BELIEVE you are serious about making sure your child behaves in public and does not cause an undo burden on the caregivers or other children in the group.

Think about THEM first and they will be happy to work with you.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jen View Post
Hmmm...well, it really does depend on how old he is, what he did, and how often he does it. If he's two years old, thats out of line, 3 is questionable depending on the circumstances, and completely acceptable for a 4 year old.

Plus, I gotta ask...you don't seem to concerned that your child is misbehaving. Are you more concerned about what he gets or doesn't get to do or what kind of person he grows in to?

If one of my kids tells me that the didn't get recess at school, my first question is WHAT DID YOU DO? Then I add and additional punishment to whatever the teacher gave them. I want respectful kids who follow the rules. Its a life lesson thing.
Child is 5 years old. Teacher is new to daycare business within past 6 months and is the end of day floater teacher, not his regular all day teacher. Teacher wouldn't tell me what happened, only that he was being naughty. Child said he was going in and out of line but doesn't remember anything else. I'm not concerned about his behavior because I've already had my quarterly conference and have been told the same by his regular teachers, that he is well behaved. I think this is an isolated incident based on inexperience and lack of licensing knowledge of teacher. I'm not going to punish my child at home for something he did at daycare when I don't know what that something is yet. I have confirmed with WI State licensing agency since posting that they did violate WI State licensing in several ways and I can file a complaint if I want to. I'd rather speak with the director though because teacher told me she hadn't talked with directors about punishment so she didn't know if what she was doing violated regulations or not. Why would I want to report this if director and I can work it out? Teachers are humans too - I've never had a problem with this teacher in the past. Plus, that's why there's licensing regulations in place, to protect the kids. Found out too, that local school system does what everyone else was suggesting, putting in timeout outside for no longer than 5 minutes- and that's what I would expect - not pulling him being able to go outside when inclement weather has prevented all the kids from going outside for 2 days now. Punishment just seemed way too harsh plus violated timeout regulation. Kids get cabin feaver when they're used to going out every day and then can't because of the weather.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Child is 5 years old. Teacher is new to daycare business within past 6 months and is the end of day floater teacher, not his regular all day teacher. Teacher wouldn't tell me what happened, only that he was being naughty. Child said he was going in and out of line but doesn't remember anything else. I'm not concerned about his behavior because I've already had my quarterly conference and have been told the same by his regular teachers, that he is well behaved. I think this is an isolated incident based on inexperience and lack of licensing knowledge of teacher. I'm not going to punish my child at home for something he did at daycare when I don't know what that something is yet. I have confirmed with WI State licensing agency since posting that they did violate WI State licensing in several ways and I can file a complaint if I want to. I'd rather speak with the director though because teacher told me she hadn't talked with directors about punishment so she didn't know if what she was doing violated regulations or not. Why would I want to report this if director and I can work it out? Teachers are humans too - I've never had a problem with this teacher in the past. Plus, that's why there's licensing regulations in place, to protect the kids. Found out too, that local school system does what everyone else was suggesting, putting in timeout outside for no longer than 5 minutes- and that's what I would expect - not pulling him being able to go outside when inclement weather has prevented all the kids from going outside for 2 days now. Punishment just seemed way too harsh plus violated timeout regulation. Kids get cabin feaver when they're used to going out every day and then can't because of the weather.
hmmmmmmmmmmm

Something is missing here.

If the adults are taking the kids out in the winter it doesn't seem easier for them to single out one kid and have them stay inside. It's WAY easier for them to supervise them in a group and have them all in one place at one time.

For him to have a single indescretion such as "being out of line" and have the adults have to do the harder work of having him away from the group... it just doesn't make sense.

It wasn't that big of a deal because you surely got him outside that day when you realized the poor kid had been cooped up inside all day long so no matter what he got what he needed.

It sounds like it was an easy peezy solution. A simple phone call to the director and you making sure that whenever he doesn't get outside during the day that you get him out in the morning and in the evening once you pick him up. If he went two days without being able to go outside during the day you would get him bundled up in the morning and evening and GET OUTSIDE so he doesn't get "cabin fever".

Kids his age LOVE being outside with their parents and you seem like the kind of parent who will make sure your son gets a lot of outdoor time when he is with you. It doesn't really matter WHO gets him outside as long as he gets outside.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:18 PM
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I feel like there are pieces of information that aren't being provided by the OP and it makes it difficult to offer an opinion without the missing pieces.

So the child is 5 years old and was being "naughty". OK, what happened to result in the TO? I know that if it were my child (and believe me, on many occasions during my daughter's younger years, it WAS her), I would ask what my child did specifically. My daughter has had many TO's during outside play and I never took issue with it because I was always told specifically what had happened. If you weren't told, then I would suggest that you ask.

As a provider, I've had kids land in a TO during outside time and there doesn't seem to be a more effective time for a TO than when a kid is outside, sitting with you, watching the others play and just itching to go and join them. I take that time to explain to the child why they are in TO and what I expect from them from now on. I wouldn't feel comfortable having a kid be indoors for a TO since I work alone and even if I didn't work alone, I still don't like the idea of keeping a child inside for a TO. They still need fresh air and large motor activity. Also, I keep my TO's to roughly one minute/age in years so it's not like the child won't be able to play once the TO is over.

Also, OP, does your child have a history with getting a lot of TO's? Do you get a daily sheet, and if so, how are the behavior problems addressed on the sheet? My daughter's daycare providers were quite good at listing her TO's and being direct with me about it. How is your relationship with the daycare teachers? The reason that I ask is because I've seen parents totally tune out anything that they are told about their child's behavior and that makes the daycare teachers feel like what they are saying is falling on deaf ears. I apologize if I'm off base with my response; I can only speak from experience as a mom of a child who practically lived in TO for a few months and as a provider who makes it a point to keep an open and honest line of communication with the parents of her daycare kids. As the mom, I had to learn to listen to what the teachers were telling me and recognize that on many occasions, she had absolutely earned her TO's. As a provider, I've learned to be the bearer of bad news without attaching a "bad kid" vibe to report I was giving. I learned to stick to the telling the parent what happened and how I responded as well as how the child responded. I also make sure that I find the positive in each and every day with a child no matter how rough the day might have been. No matter how rough a child's day has been, I tell them that "I love you on the days when you have trouble with your listening ears and make sad choices. I love you on the days when you make good choices and teach your friends how to make good choices too. I love you no matter what, and nothing will ever change that."

It's hard to hear that your child has been put in a TO because as parents, we want to believe that our kids don't behave in ways that will result in TO's. My daughter got 17 TO's in just one day when she was about 3 1/2. I'm just glad that she had a daycare teacher that wrote about them on her daily sheet. It helped me to understand what was happening. I hope that you can talk to your child's daycare and figure this all out. If you find that all that you ever hear about is how naughty your son was, then I would strongly recommend addressing it with the teachers. If that's the case, then it may be time to switch daycares.

Good luck!
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
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I feel like there are pieces of information that aren't being provided by the OP and it makes it difficult to offer an opinion without the missing pieces.

So the child is 5 years old and was being "naughty". OK, what happened to result in the TO? I know that if it were my child (and believe me, on many occasions during my daughter's younger years, it WAS her), I would ask what my child did specifically. My daughter has had many TO's during outside play and I never took issue with it because I was always told specifically what had happened. If you weren't told, then I would suggest that you ask.

As a provider, I've had kids land in a TO during outside time and there doesn't seem to be a more effective time for a TO than when a kid is outside, sitting with you, watching the others play and just itching to go and join them. I take that time to explain to the child why they are in TO and what I expect from them from now on. I wouldn't feel comfortable having a kid be indoors for a TO since I work alone and even if I didn't work alone, I still don't like the idea of keeping a child inside for a TO. They still need fresh air and large motor activity. Also, I keep my TO's to roughly one minute/age in years so it's not like the child won't be able to play once the TO is over.

Also, OP, does your child have a history with getting a lot of TO's? Do you get a daily sheet, and if so, how are the behavior problems addressed on the sheet? My daughter's daycare providers were quite good at listing her TO's and being direct with me about it. How is your relationship with the daycare teachers? The reason that I ask is because I've seen parents totally tune out anything that they are told about their child's behavior and that makes the daycare teachers feel like what they are saying is falling on deaf ears. I apologize if I'm off base with my response; I can only speak from experience as a mom of a child who practically lived in TO for a few months and as a provider who makes it a point to keep an open and honest line of communication with the parents of her daycare kids. As the mom, I had to learn to listen to what the teachers were telling me and recognize that on many occasions, she had absolutely earned her TO's. As a provider, I've learned to be the bearer of bad news without attaching a "bad kid" vibe to report I was giving. I learned to stick to the telling the parent what happened and how I responded as well as how the child responded. I also make sure that I find the positive in each and every day with a child no matter how rough the day might have been. No matter how rough a child's day has been, I tell them that "I love you on the days when you have trouble with your listening ears and make sad choices. I love you on the days when you make good choices and teach your friends how to make good choices too. I love you no matter what, and nothing will ever change that."

It's hard to hear that your child has been put in a TO because as parents, we want to believe that our kids don't behave in ways that will result in TO's. My daughter got 17 TO's in just one day when she was about 3 1/2. I'm just glad that she had a daycare teacher that wrote about them on her daily sheet. It helped me to understand what was happening. I hope that you can talk to your child's daycare and figure this all out. If you find that all that you ever hear about is how naughty your son was, then I would strongly recommend addressing it with the teachers. If that's the case, then it may be time to switch daycares.

Good luck!
Update: I'm the OP. I wasn't given any other info from the teacher. Director apologized and things were worked out. I trust the teachers and directors and there are no hard feelings all around. We all get along well. My only concern at post was whether the teacher could deny outside time as punishment. His teachers say he is well behaved. He doesn't get a lot of TOs. They have never been that vague as they were that one day - I get details otherwise of his day, things he worked on, problems, etc. verbally.
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