Illegal But Excellent? Opinions Please :)

I've been reading the threads about illegal/unlicensed home daycare and I'm curious what people will say about our situation:

Our in-home providers are a *wonderful* married couple, we've been with them for almost 9 years. She has degrees in ECE and psychology and he got certified for ECE years ago to be her assistant if needed. For more than 10 years the wife was 100% licensed for 6 kids or less (even though she didn't have to be in our state) and the husband helped out if she was sick or had an appointment or whatever. A few years ago his job got sent to Mexico, and at the same time 4 of the families were having our second babies, so she hired him full time and they've been working together ever since. We LOVE them; they never go over the ratios, the home is safer than mine with a better fence lol, they do everything they're supposed to and their curriculum is great! They charge around the same as the licensed homes around us and they pay all their taxes, I know because my brother-in-law is their accountant (I introduced them!) They go above and beyond for their families and even their two teenage daughters got certified in first aid and CPR to help out, I love having my kids with them! Problem: they can't get licensed for more than 6 kids, they tried and tried but the county won't give them a variance because they say others will want to do the same and it will bring down the value of the neighborhood. In our area they're supposed to be in a commercial space for more than 6 kids but don't even need a license for less than 7!

Would people here report them, or leave them be?

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading the threads about illegal/unlicensed home daycare and I'm curious what people will say about our situation:

Our in-home providers are a *wonderful* married couple, we've been with them for almost 9 years. She has degrees in ECE and psychology and he got certified for ECE years ago to be her assistant if needed. For more than 10 years the wife was 100% licensed for 6 kids or less (even though she didn't have to be in our state) and the husband helped out if she was sick or had an appointment or whatever. A few years ago his job got sent to Mexico, and at the same time 4 of the families were having our second babies, so she hired him full time and they've been working together ever since. We LOVE them; they never go over the ratios, the home is safer than mine with a better fence lol, they do everything they're supposed to and their curriculum is great! They charge around the same as the licensed homes around us and they pay all their taxes, I know because my brother-in-law is their accountant (I introduced them!) They go above and beyond for their families and even their two teenage daughters got certified in first aid and CPR to help out, I love having my kids with them! Problem: they can't get licensed for more than 6 kids, they tried and tried but the county won't give them a variance because they say others will want to do the same and it will bring down the value of the neighborhood. In our area they're supposed to be in a commercial space for more than 6 kids but don't even need a license for less than 7!

Would people here report them, or leave them be?

Then it looks like they can only have 6 kids.

Doesn't matter if they both have a master degree in early childhood and know more about kids than any other person alive.

Illegal is illegal no matter how you explain it.

My suggestion is that if they are that good and in that much demand, they should consider looking into opening a facility in an area that does allow more than 6 kids.

[midaycare]

This post sounds suspicious but I'll answer anyway.

I would not report.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

Then it looks like they can only have 6 kids.

Doesn't matter if they both have a master degree in early childhood and know more about kids than any other person alive.

Illegal is illegal no matter how you explain it.

My suggestion is that if they are that good and in that much demand, they should consider looking into opening a facility in an area that does allow more than 6 kids.

I had a feeling folks here would say that. I read up on it myself, the state rules read like you can totally have a home-daycare with 7-12 kids and two adults (Type A family home daycare) but then you get into it and the zoning board says one kid over 7 and you're commercial no matter how many adults you have

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I had a feeling folks here would say that. I read up on it myself, the state rules read like you can totally have a home-daycare with 7-12 kids and two adults (Type A family home daycare) but then you get into it and the zoning board says one kid over 7 and you're commercial no matter how many adults you have

One over 6, that is

[trix23]

Whatever state regs are would be my decision to report or not. If they are good, then they should do registered or licensed home or open a facility. I Would only believe they claim taxes if I saw the report with my own eyes.

[Cat Herder]

What state? It is possible you are reading outdated regulations.

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

What state? It is possible you are reading outdated regulations.

Ohio

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I had a feeling folks here would say that. I read up on it myself, the state rules read like you can totally have a home-daycare with 7-12 kids and two adults (Type A family home daycare) but then you get into it and the zoning board says one kid over 7 and you're commercial no matter how many adults you have

Okay so are you talking licensing ratios or zoning ratios?

I bet that makes a difference....

So if zoning says they can only have 6 but they have 7
State says they can have 7,

Then the only trouble they'd be in is from zoning....I am sure state recommends you follow all city ordinances but it sounds to me like there are two different rules at play here.

Originally Posted by trix23

Whatever state regs are would be my decision to report or not. If they are good, then they should do registered or licensed home or open a facility. I Would only believe they claim taxes if I saw the report with my own eyes.

I know for a fact that they claim all their kids every year, like I said my BIL is their accountant I hear you; I wish our state didn't make it so hard to have more than 6 kids, it's ridiculous.

[hwichlaz]

I wouldn't report them unless I suspected abuse or neglect. But I'm of the mind, clean up your own side of the street before gazing across it.

[Cat Herder]

"Family Child Care Type A Homes -7 to 12 children (or 4 to 12 children if 4 children are under 2 years of age) cared for in the provider’s home. The provider's own children under 6 years of age must be included in the total count.

Family Child Care Type B homes serving children through the publicly funded child care program - 1 to 6 children cared for in the provider's personal home. No more than three children may be under the age of two. The provider's own children under six years of age must be included in the total count. Please note: anyone can provide care to children in his/her home without a license. However, in order to receive reimbursement for serving families eligible for publicly funded child care, the Type B home provider must be licensed by ODJFS. "

I would assume the State regs would supercede. Are you sure it is about County regs and not the enrolled childrens ages? Does she have the required minimum space per child? Has she joined any National Family Childcare Associations? Could they help?

It sounds "off". We have a right to operate and are usually protected by that.

[midaycare]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I had a feeling folks here would say that. I read up on it myself, the state rules read like you can totally have a home-daycare with 7-12 kids and two adults (Type A family home daycare) but then you get into it and the zoning board says one kid over 7 and you're commercial no matter how many adults you have

Must depend on your area? I'm upping my license from 1-6 to 7-12. My zoning board has no issues. Are you sure you have the correct information?

[Cat Herder]

http://emanuals.jfs.ohio.gov/ChildCa...01-2-13-11.stm

http://emanuals.jfs.ohio.gov/ChildCa...ildCare/Rules/

Here are more specific rules.

[midaycare]

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

Okay so are you talking licensing ratios or zoning ratios?

I bet that makes a difference....

So if zoning says they can only have 6 but they have 7
State says they can have 7,

Then the only trouble they'd be in is from zoning....I am sure state recommends you follow all city ordinances but it sounds to me like there are two different rules at play here.

In MI you have to get zoning approval before they will give you a bigger license. Maybe that is the issue?

[midaycare]

OP for what it's worth, I find your knowledge of their life and business unsettling. Amd your bil is unethical for sharing any info with you.

[Cat Herder]

I do want to share with you that my State just did away with the group home classification entirely because of how many people were going over ratio illegally.

Now providers only have two choices : Family childcare at 1/6 or a Center. Many states will follow soon. Their goal is to do away with family childcare entirely because we are too hard to manage and take up resources that they feel would be better spent elsewhere. Your provider is part of the problem for our field right now, not the solution.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

sounds like a zoning issue. Neighborhoods dont want a lot of traffic that can come with numerous families picking up or dropping off each day. There is nothing to turn them in for if they are in ratio. Kind of sounds like you are asking if someone would turn them in if they went around the zoning and did more kids anyway?

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

Okay so are you talking licensing ratios or zoning ratios?

I bet that makes a difference....

So if zoning says they can only have 6 but they have 7
State says they can have 7,

Then the only trouble they'd be in is from zoning....I am sure state recommends you follow all city ordinances but it sounds to me like there are two different rules at play here.

Basically what you said. Back in 2005 I was looking into it for myself to do with my best friend and I don't think it's changed: licensing ratios are 7-12 kids and two adults for a Type A family home daycare; that part's not hard, but the zoning board is famous for refusing to allow it because more than 6 kids, even just 7, makes you commercial in their eyes. I know rules are rules but that's ridiculous to me. Apparently there's lots of places here that are legal as far as numbers for Type A home daycare, but illegal/unlicensed because the zoning board says no and you can't get your license without the zoning board approval and they never approve anyone

I get why some people think it's wrong, I just wanted opinions.

[Cat Herder]

Can they all get together and protest this? Can their CCR&R not help with this? That is one of the things they do. They are paid to help us, with our own tax dollars.

Write letters to the editor, show up at city council meetings, etc. Write Mayors, Representatives, Senators and Governors daily. They love that. (worked for me once)

Beg child care associations for help. Facebook it. Change.org it. Anything is better than operating illegally and risking everything they have worked for. They deserve better from their community.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I do want to share with you that my State just did away with the group home classification entirely because of how many people were going over ratio illegally.

Now providers only have two choices : Family childcare at 1/6 or a Center. Many states will follow soon. Their goal is to do away with family childcare entirely because we are too hard to manage and take up resources that they feel would be better spent elsewhere. Your provider is part of the problem for our field right now, not the solution.

I don't think that is fair. The problem is the disconnect between what the state allows and what the city zoning commissions allow. People want daycare and they want it to be accessible and affordable. The main entities I see getting int he way of this are the state and the city. If they cannot follow through on regulating the rules they put in place, that is on them. If they make a regulation that the city does not allow, then they should do the work to make it allowable versus putting that cost on the provider. IMO, this sounds like a wonderful provider who want to expand, but cannot due to city zoning laws. I don't think the provider is the problem. I think they and parents are feeling the consequence of over regulation in this area. It sounds like the city does not want home based daycare for more than 6 kids. They want centers in commercial areas. The city is electing to have kids in center based care versus home based care.

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Basically what you said. Back in 2005 I was looking into it for myself to do with my best friend and I don't think it's changed: licensing ratios are 7-12 kids and two adults for a Type A family home daycare; that part's not hard, but the zoning board is famous for refusing to allow it because more than 6 kids, even just 7, makes you commercial in their eyes. I know rules are rules but that's ridiculous to me. Apparently there's lots of places here that are legal as far as numbers for Type A home daycare, but illegal/unlicensed because the zoning board says no and you can't get your license without the zoning board approval and they never approve anyone

I get why some people think it's wrong, I just wanted opinions.

Providers can go to city council meetings and seek a variance from zoning. In my community zoning doesn't have to approve a family child care but I know in some cities they do and some are approved for a variance and some are not....it really is dependent on the area (both where the child care provider is located and how lenient the city officials are about it.)

If there is a huge shortage of providers in your area or the daycare meets a specific need then I would use that as a starting point to request and obtain a variance from zoning.

There ARE ways to do this but from my understanding it's a lot of work and requires some patience.

Originally Posted by midaycare

OP for what it's worth, I find your knowledge of their life and business unsettling. Amd your bil is unethical for sharing any info with you.

We're friends with them, my daughters have been with them since 2006 and I go to ballroom dance and Zumba with the Mom! And all my BIL said is that they pay their taxes, nothing more; we give them a total every January and they have our Tax ID number for filing every year, believe me there's nothing unethical about it

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

Providers can go to city council meetings and seek a variance from zoning. In my community zoning doesn't have to approve a family child care but I know in some cities they do and some are approved for a variance and some are not....it really is dependent on the area (both where the child care provider is located and how lenient the city officials are about it.)

If there is a huge shortage of providers in your area or the daycare meets a specific need then I would use that as a starting point to request and obtain a variance from zoning.

There ARE ways to do this but from my understanding it's a lot of work and requires some patience.

I get the impression they're still trying, it actually came up in conversation and that's what led me here

Originally Posted by mommyneedsadayoff

I don't think that is fair. The problem is the disconnect between what the state allows and what the city zoning commissions allow. People want daycare and they want it to be accessible and affordable. The main entities I see getting int he way of this are the state and the city. If they cannot follow through on regulating the rules they put in place, that is on them. If they make a regulation that the city does not allow, then they should do the work to make it allowable versus putting that cost on the provider. IMO, this sounds like a wonderful provider who want to expand, but cannot due to city zoning laws. I don't think the provider is the problem. I think they and parents are feeling the consequence of over regulation in this area. It sounds like the city does not want home based daycare for more than 6 kids. They want centers in commercial areas. The city is electing to have kids in center based care versus home based care.

I agree. Heck, there wasn't even an increase in traffic for my provider because the new babies came with their older brothers and sisters like mine did, I know her neighbors weren't bothered at all. And they could at least stop saying there's a such thing as a Type A family daycare here because nobody seems able to open one but the state's website makes you think you can, it sucked when my best friend and I couldn't

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by mommyneedsadayoff

I don't think that is fair.

I don't mean it in a confrontational or accusatory tone. Just a factual one. No emotion.

She is giving them the ammunition they need to simply make her go away instead of fighting to change policy.

With her training, reputation, evidence of long term compliance and support from her clients she would be in the best position to elicit change. Newer providers don't stand a chance, but she has a real one if she played her cards right.

Again, I was not intending to tear her down, the opposite is true. I have been fighting this system for years, they would LOVE to catch me in a huge violation to shut me up. Not happening.

[midaycare]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I do want to share with you that my State just did away with the group home classification entirely because of how many people were going over ratio illegally.

Now providers only have two choices : Family childcare at 1/6 or a Center. Many states will follow soon. Their goal is to do away with family childcare entirely because we are too hard to manage and take up resources that they feel would be better spent elsewhere. Your provider is part of the problem for our field right now, not the solution.

Shhhhh...if you don't say it, it won't be true. I'm excited to have a group license I would not want to open a center.

I will get thrown under the bus for this....but I AM a underground provider. I was licsened for many many years. I jumped thru all the hoops and played the game. I currently have police people ..custom agents..teachers and now CPS supervisor as clients. Why..because these people know just how flawed the systems are. Just for record..I was heavily involved in trying to change the system for 10+ years...what I learned..without $$$$ or political power...you go no where. The common person needs a person that will care for their kids..teach them...let them learn in a safe environment. Go with your gut. How many people drive the exact speed limit.....Have you ever Made a safe descion to turn on red..... How many people take the whole donation on the tax line...but don't donate.....and then look at our government......yeh...totally trust worthy and honest...make it work for YOU.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I will get thrown under the bus for this....but I AM a underground provider. I was licsened for many many years. I jumped thru all the hoops and played the game. I currently have police people ..custom agents..teachers and now CPS supervisor as clients. Why..because these people know just how flawed the systems are. Just for record..I was heavily involved in trying to change the system for 10+ years...what I learned..without $$$$ or political power...you go no where. The common person needs a person that will care for their kids..teach them...let them learn in a safe environment. Go with your gut. How many people drive the exact speed limit.....Have you ever Made a safe descion to turn on red..... How many people take the whole donation on the tax line...but don't donate.....and then look at our government......yeh...totally trust worthy and honest...make it work for YOU.

But what will happen if you get caught? To your family and theirs? THAT is the risk that I simply can't take.

More than half the providers in my county are currently operating illegally. How do they operate watching the windows every day? I can't imagine that stress level on my health.

I don't watch my windows..I educated myself...in the law. Look up CPS..know your rights..look up the 4th and 5th amendments. Knowledge is power.

And yes every 3-4 yrs "they try" however because of what I know....they have no recourse. Period.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

And yes every 3-4 yrs "they try" however because of what I know....they have no recourse. Period.

What does that entail? What does it look like? Do they come to your door with legal papers? Police?

I believe CCR&R comes first to offer resources, then if no change the criminal system will shut you down, apply fines and jail time. After that you are barred from working with children and most care taking professions (senior care, foster care, residential treatment homes, etc.).

I am not throwing you under the bus, I truly want to know. Maybe I have been fighting this wrong. Is there another way to fight the strangling over-regulation without risk of legal consequences to my clients or my family? How do you minimize that risk?

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

What does that entail? What does it look like? Do they come to your door with legal papers? Police?

I believe CCR&R comes first to offer resources, then if no change the criminal system will shut you down, apply fines and jail time. After that you are barred from working with children and most care taking professions (senior care, foster care, residential treatment homes, etc.).

I am not throwing you under the bus, I truly want to know. Maybe I have been fighting this wrong. Is there another way to fight the strangling over-regulation without risk of legal consequences to my clients or my family? How do you minimize that risk?

I asked my licensor what would happen if you did daycare illegally. She said most likely nothing because they cant do anything but tell you to become licensed. Someone would have to call the police, a parent most likely, but even so you could just tell them its not true, or not answer your door, and there isnt much else they can do. It would have to be something serious like a child was injured/death.

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I don't watch my windows..I educated myself...in the law. Look up CPS..know your rights..look up the 4th and 5th amendments. Knowledge is power.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

And yes every 3-4 yrs "they try" however because of what I know....they have no recourse. Period.

I want to know what happens if a child gets hurt at your house? Who covers this? Are you ensured? Will the parent sue you for everything? Will you be charged with negligence then?

If you are doing something illegal, even if the consequence according to the law isn't that big of a deal, what about the moral or ethical part of it?

I DO drive the speed limit and have never choose to turn on red or claim a tax donation I've didn't get. Sorry but my conscious doesn't allow me to justify that type of thing as ok or acceptable.

Mostly though I couldn't look to the little faces of the kids i am guiding and teaching and feel good about myself if I knew I was breaking the law every day. I just couldn't be that hypocritical in my everyday life.


Also want to add.... What difference does it make what type of clients you have? Who cares if they are CPS workers or police officers..... their profession obviously doesn't define good character or moral behavior.....One would think similarly about child care providers.
But you are proof that isn't always true.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

I do want to share with you that my State just did away with the group home classification entirely because of how many people were going over ratio illegally.

Now providers only have two choices : Family childcare at 1/6 or a Center. Many states will follow soon. Their goal is to do away with family childcare entirely because we are too hard to manage and take up resources that they feel would be better spent elsewhere. Your provider is part of the problem for our field right now, not the solution.

WOW! Do providers own children count in that 6? That is crazy to me. I am licensed for 12 and I never go over my ratio. My own children under 14 DO count and children under 18 months (my own baby due soon) take up 2 spaces.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

What does that entail? What does it look like? Do they come to your door with legal papers? Police?

I believe CCR&R comes first to offer resources, then if no change the criminal system will shut you down, apply fines and jail time. After that you are barred from working with children and most care taking professions (senior care, foster care, residential treatment homes, etc.).

I am not throwing you under the bus, I truly want to know. Maybe I have been fighting this wrong. Is there another way to fight the strangling over-regulation without risk of legal consequences to my clients or my family? How do you minimize that risk?

I have reported an illegal provider many times in my area. The state simply knocks on her door, she doesn't answer, and they do nothing. This has been going on for THREE YEARS.
They keep saying, now, that she is working on filing her paperwork...and we aren't supposed to watch children WITHOUT being listed, registered, or licensed...but they turn their head because "she's trying."

[Snowmom]

Illegal is illegal.
It doesn't matter if the intention is good.

[Controlled Chaos]

There are zoning rules in Utah that are similar. I am in a city that allows 1:8 ratio but 3 houses down the street is a different city that only allows 1:6. So If I lived down the street in their city I would be over ratio for the city zoning law but still within state licensing rules. Its super frustrating.

I wouldn't report a zoning issue. Same as I don't report my neighbor who has backyard chickens even though its against city ordinance. If they lived in our neighboring city they would be allowed them

[midaycare]

Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist

WOW! Do providers own children count in that 6? That is crazy to me. I am licensed for 12 and I never go over my ratio. My own children under 14 DO count and children under 18 months (my own baby due soon) take up 2 spaces.

In MI we can only have 6. But we can still get a group family home license with an assistant and have 12 kids. Our own kids count up to age 7. Daycare is in high demand.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

I want to know what happens if a child gets hurt at your house? Who covers this? Are you ensured? Will the parent sue you for everything? Will you be charged with negligence then?

If you are doing something illegal, even if the consequence according to the law isn't that big of a deal, what about the moral or ethical part of it?

I DO drive the speed limit and have never choose to turn on red or claim a tax donation I've didn't get. Sorry but my conscious doesn't allow me to justify that type of thing as ok or acceptable.

Mostly though I couldn't look to the little faces of the kids i am guiding and teaching and feel good about myself if I knew I was breaking the law every day. I just couldn't be that hypocritical in my everyday life.


Also want to add.... What difference does it make what type of clients you have? Who cares if they are CPS workers or police officers..... their profession obviously doesn't define good character or moral behavior.....One would think similarly about child care providers.
But you are proof that isn't always true.

For the most part I agree, but there are plenty of laws on the books that are outdated and silly; when laws are written badly plenty of people disobey them until it's finally changed, in fact many times that's why they get changed! My mother was black and my dad is white, when they got married in the 60's it was still illegal in a lot of places. They had to be very, very careful when they visited our family in the South because of people who would have turned them in for ethical and moral reasons and because "illegal is illegal". Yes I know it's not the same thing, but caregivers that are doing everything right but still can't get licensed because of nonsense need to be left alone. that's way more ethical and moral IMO. If you take great care of your kids and help families you can always look them in the eye with pride

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

For the most part I agree, but there are plenty of laws on the books that are outdated and silly; when laws are written badly plenty of people disobey them until it's finally changed, in fact many times that's why they get changed! My mother was black and my dad is white, when they got married in the 60's it was still illegal in a lot of places. They had to be very, very careful when they visited our family in the South because of people who would have turned them in for ethical and moral reasons and because "illegal is illegal". Yes I know it's not the same thing, but caregivers that are doing everything right but still can't get licensed because of nonsense need to be left alone. that's way more ethical and moral IMO. If you take great care of your kids and help families you can always look them in the eye with pride

I'm sorry but this is a sad outlook.

One should never just accept something if its not right.

Knowing the law, intentionally breaking it but doing nothing other than saying it's dumb is even dumber... and even less productive.

If there are a ton of providers that are ILLEGAL and still doing everything right why not join forces and advocate for a change? Doing something is better than doing nothing but still complaining about it. We call those kids whiners.

A great man once said "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"





fwiw~ I am NOT talking about zoning rules...I am referring to licensing rules/laws.

[Josiegirl]

I'm not in the 'local loop' of dcprovider gossip in my town but my food program lady visited this week. We started talking about the ultra-ridiculous new regs that are going into effect Sept. 1st. She said it's causing a lo of providers to go under the radar and drop their licenses. She said she knows 1 who has 10 toddlers. (And yes, she reported them)To me, that is playing with fire. And children's lives. Dcfs need care and legal caregivers are dropping like flies so what other choice do families have? I'm certainly not saying it's right, not at all. Besides, why should all the rest of us have to jump through all these hoops to stay in business while illegal providers are still getting away with it?? The one biggest thing keeping me from being illegal is the risk of a child getting hurt....it'd be all over for me. My insurance co. would drop me in a heartbeat if I wasn't regulated by the state.
So while I'm upset with all the damN rules and regs. they're shoving down our throats, making it near impossible to keep up this profession, I'll never become illegal to keep doing it. It's just not right and too big of a risk.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

I'm sorry but this is a sad outlook.

One should never just accept something if its not right.

Knowing the law, intentionally breaking it but doing nothing other than saying it's dumb is even dumber... and even less productive.

If there are a ton of providers that are ILLEGAL and still doing everything right why not join forces and advocate for a change? Doing something is better than doing nothing but still complaining about it. We call those kids whiners.

A great man once said "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"





fwiw~ I am NOT talking about zoning rules...I am referring to licensing rules/laws.

But if they can't get the license because of the zoning rules...

Meanwhile I missed where anyone said that nothing was being done; I've been reading up on it here and on Facebook, daycare providers have been trying to do something about it for the longest time! It's been an issue in OH for years:

https://daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53196

An even greater man once said "By any means necessary." I know that for some folks rules are much more important than people, that's the sad outlook IMO.

Originally Posted by Snowmom

Illegal is illegal.
It doesn't matter if the intention is good.

http://www.cltampa.com/news-views/lo...g-the-homeless

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

But if they can't get the license because of the zoning rules...

Meanwhile I missed where anyone said that nothing was being done; I've been reading up on it here and on Facebook, daycare providers have been trying to do something about it for the longest time! It's been an issue in OH for years:

https://daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53196

So what are you doing?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

An even greater man once said "By any means necessary." I know that for some folks rules are much more important than people, that's the sad outlook IMO.

It seems that people don't like rules as they represent a kind of restriction, but in fact life can't be organized without rules.

People always need rules and laws to be able to live and deal together. If there are no rules and everyone is free to do whatever they want, most people will probably behave selfishly.

Doctors, engineers, farmers, everyone in the society must behave under rules. Most things we do are governed by rules.

All the rules and laws have the same purpose. They organize the relations between individuals and the society to make it clear what is right and wrong

Most of us are basically honest, and knowing the rules means that we usually try to follow them. It doesn't mean anyone thinks rules are more important than people; it means there's an understanding that although not perfect or one size fits all rules are important to follow BECAUSE people are valuable and just like policies for the group of kids in care vs one individual child rules ARE for the greater good.

Stop making excuses for not following them. You said some rules were nonsense... I think some are and some aren't.

Your opinion might be different than mine and that's my point.... your opinion is no more important or right than mine so collectively society creates a rule. If you don't agree with one in particular, do something other than try to justify why you are breaking it.

Sometimes things take days, months, years or more to change but it's all dependent on how long someone is willing to fight/be active rather than be passive.

[TomCopeland]

My two cents on this issue:
* I think everyone agrees that keeping children safe is the number one priority for family child care providers. Licensing rules provide a minimum of health and safety standards. Many illegal providers probably do not meet these standards. That's a problem.
* Illegal providers can't get business liability insurance. Even though a lot of licensed providers don't have this insurance, everyone should. All providers without such insurance run a great financial risk.
* Illegal care undermines the entire child care industry by making it very difficult for parents to sort out what quality care is.
* Changing the child care industry so that we have reasonable and accountable health and safety rules is difficult. However, it needs to be done. Until all child care providers and child care organizations push for this, it won't happen.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

I understand the illegal versus legal argument, but in this case, I do not think legal or illegal means ANYTHING when it comes to the safety and care of a child. Every state has different standards, so what is illegal in one, is completely legal in another. In this case, legal/illegal lose all meaning, which is why this is a never ending debate. If CA says that for the safety of the children, you must be licensed to watch ANY number of kids, then that should hold true in every other state. Since ND (my state) says that I can watch 5 kids without being licensed, it really has nothing to do with safety or quality care. It has to do with MONEY. If you want to make extra money watching kids in CA, you will have to pay money first (unless they are related to you, in which case, you can watch as many as you want...hmmm). In ND, you can make a living without having the state involved at all.

This happens in all areas besides childcare. In TX, they started doing phot tickets at stop lights. They said it was reduce people running lights and for the safety of the roadways. It was only in certain cities, so as I was driving from Frisco into Richardson, I would go through a town that had them, but also through 3 that did not. Research showed there was no actual reduction in accidents because of them, but the cities who had them, got $75 per ticket and there was numerous court cases of people who got tickets they should not have. They were basically proven to be a source of revenue for the city.

That is off topic, but the question remains. If it is legal in one state, but illegal in another, what is the actual efficacy of the law other than to produce income or to be able to regulate an industry? Especially when this industry does not have enough enforcers to make sure people are jumping through the hoops?

FTR, I would not operate illegally because of liability, since you cannot be insured, but it would have nothing to do with safety or quality of care i can provide. It is basically because a state said I was not capable of operating without their consent and the insurance companies followed suit.

Whenever you own a business, the red tape can get heavy, so you have to be vigilant about what you are allowed or not allowed to do in your state. But again, states vary on what they expect, so for me, I would never move to one that is not childcare business friendly.

[TomCopeland]

Originally Posted by mommyneedsadayoff

I understand the illegal versus legal argument, but in this case, I do not think legal or illegal means ANYTHING when it comes to the safety and care of a child. Every state has different standards, so what is illegal in one, is completely legal in another. In this case, legal/illegal lose all meaning, which is why this is a never ending debate. If CA says that for the safety of the children, you must be licensed to watch ANY number of kids, then that should hold true in every other state. Since ND (my state) says that I can watch 5 kids without being licensed, it really has nothing to do with safety or quality care. It has to do with MONEY. If you want to make extra money watching kids in CA, you will have to pay money first (unless they are related to you, in which case, you can watch as many as you want...hmmm). In ND, you can make a living without having the state involved at all.

This happens in all areas besides childcare. In TX, they started doing phot tickets at stop lights. They said it was reduce people running lights and for the safety of the roadways. It was only in certain cities, so as I was driving from Frisco into Richardson, I would go through a town that had them, but also through 3 that did not. Research showed there was no actual reduction in accidents because of them, but the cities who had them, got $75 per ticket and there was numerous court cases of people who got tickets they should not have. They were basically proven to be a source of revenue for the city.

That is off topic, but the question remains. If it is legal in one state, but illegal in another, what is the actual efficacy of the law other than to produce income or to be able to regulate an industry? Especially when this industry does not have enough enforcers to make sure people are jumping through the hoops?

FTR, I would not operate illegally because of liability, since you cannot be insured, but it would have nothing to do with safety or quality of care i can provide. It is basically because a state said I was not capable of operating without their consent and the insurance companies followed suit.

Whenever you own a business, the red tape can get heavy, so you have to be vigilant about what you are allowed or not allowed to do in your state. But again, states vary on what they expect, so for me, I would never move to one that is not childcare business friendly.

It's true that there are no national standards about licensing. Therefore, what is legal in one state is illegal in another. That's true for many laws. However, to say that there is no difference in child safety is stretching it, I believe.

I don't believe there is any data to support your conclusion. I'd love to see a report that compared the strictness of licensing standards to the health and safety of young children in care.

As a parent I'd want my child with a provider who has training in first aid, had an emergency plan, had smoke detectors and was regularly inspected.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Originally Posted by TomCopeland

It's true that there are no national standards about licensing. Therefore, what is legal in one state is illegal in another. That's true for many laws. However, to say that there is no difference in child safety is stretching it, I believe.

I don't believe there is any data to support your conclusion. I'd love to see a report that compared the strictness of licensing standards to the health and safety of young children in care.

As a parent I'd want my child with a provider who has training in first aid, had an emergency plan, had smoke detectors and was regularly inspected.

But there is none to support yours as well. This happens because there is no sort of registry or whatnot to report to. I would actually love to see a report as well. At least then, I could see some effect of the licensing regualtions that some states adapt, versus those states who adapt little to none.

I have CPR/basic first aid and nursing training (CNA) and my home as smoke and carbon monoxide detectors, as well as viable emergency escapes if needed. Again, that is just what I have, no license or anything, but viable means to care for hte kids I say I will care for.

I would guess it is hard to find data, since there is nothing fluent between the states, so what is legal in one is illegal in another. Not sure how you ca measure success or failure in that case.

It kind of reminds me of the "illusion of safety". When someone tried to bring a bomb on a plane in their shoes, we started taking our shoes off at airports. When someone tried using fluids, we started only being allowed a few ounces on carry on. When someone's kid got hurt by falling off the monkey bars, we stopped letting monkey bars be a part of the play system. Everything is a reaction. And generally, the people actually paying attention (who never did anything wrong) are the ones who will stick to the new rules.

I am NOT saying that we should not have licensing or standards that should be met, but if the purpose of those standards is for the safety or well being of the children, they should be consistent from state to state. When you move, it should not be a question of what you have to do...it should be right in your face. There is too much inconsistency and grey and I don't think that helps our industry...I think it makes it confusing and I think it leads to more people operating outside the rules. Just my two cents!

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by mommyneedsadayoff

But there is none to support yours as well. This happens because there is no sort of registry or whatnot to report to. I would actually love to see a report as well. At least then, I could see some effect of the licensing regualtions that some states adapt, versus those states who adapt little to none.

I have CPR/basic first aid and nursing training (CNA) and my home as smoke and carbon monoxide detectors, as well as viable emergency escapes if needed. Again, that is just what I have, no license or anything, but viable means to care for hte kids I say I will care for.

I would guess it is hard to find data, since there is nothing fluent between the states, so what is legal in one is illegal in another. Not sure how you ca measure success or failure in that case.

It kind of reminds me of the "illusion of safety". When someone tried to bring a bomb on a plane in their shoes, we started taking our shoes off at airports. When someone tried using fluids, we started only being allowed a few ounces on carry on. When someone's kid got hurt by falling off the monkey bars, we stopped letting monkey bars be a part of the play system. Everything is a reaction. And generally, the people actually paying attention (who never did anything wrong) are the ones who will stick to the new rules.

I am NOT saying that we should not have licensing or standards that should be met, but if the purpose of those standards is for the safety or well being of the children, they should be consistent from state to state. When you move, it should not be a question of what you have to do...it should be right in your face. There is too much inconsistency and grey and I don't think that helps our industry...I think it makes it confusing and I think it leads to more people operating outside the rules. Just my two cents!

Yes there are....rules and regulations.

Rules and regulations are "agreed upon necessities" to ensure the cause/point which in this case is overall child safety.

States gather information, do research and together decide what rules and regulations are needed for the children in licensed care environments to be provided a safe environment.

Illegal providers don't follow that thought process so when someone like OP says "Illegal but Excellent" I wonder by WHO'S standards??

At least the rules and regulations in each state have an intended purpose and provide a basic guideline verses just a free for all because one size doesn't fit all.

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by mommyneedsadayoff

I am NOT saying that we should not have licensing or standards that should be met, but if the purpose of those standards is for the safety or well being of the children, they should be consistent from state to state. When you move, it should not be a question of what you have to do...it should be right in your face. There is too much inconsistency and grey and I don't think that helps our industry...I think it makes it confusing and I think it leads to more people operating outside the rules. Just my two cents!

I think the rules and regulations from state to state ARE basic and fairly similar/consistent hands down.....it's the licensors themselves that I think are the issue. They RARELY if ever interpret the rules in the same way.

Think food program. It's a federal program with the same rules across the country but every single agency interprets the rules differently.

My state has been advocating for training (in regards to rule/regulation interpretation) for ALL licensors to prevent this type of thing from continuing to happen. I think once that training happens, alot of the "haze" or "gray" area will be very clear. For everyone.

[mommyneedsadayoff]

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

I think the rules and regulations from state to state ARE basic and fairly similar/consistent hands down.....it's the licensors themselves that I think are the issue. They RARELY if ever interpret the rules in the same way.

Think food program. It's a federal program with the same rules across the country but every single agency interprets the rules differently.

My state has been advocating for training (in regards to rule/regulation interpretation) for ALL licensors to prevent this type of thing from continuing to happen. I think once that training happens, alot of the "haze" or "gray" area will be very clear. For everyone.

Yes thats a good point. The interpretation seems to be varied and confuses the dc providers. I have read many times of two providers in the same area who have been told very different things.

As far as being able to see actual research, I guess i meant it would be too hard to measure. If my state allows you to operate with 5 kids and no one even knows about it, how can they measure if im as safe or safer than the licensed facility down the street, kwim? I just dont get how they can prove that licensed is safer or better care, since the rules of ratios and standards are so varied. Anyhoo, just thinking out loud, but i do agree that if you live in a state where a license is required, you should get the license if for no other reason than to protect your livlihood and not put yourself at risk.