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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Daycare Family Trying To Re-Collect Money Owed To A Provider!
Unregistered 08:45 AM 02-21-2011
I got a delivery notice for xpresspost today about one of my former daycare families summoning me to small claims court.
Here's the story...
DM comes to me and informs me that she is going to change daycares due to the fact that she wants her daughter going outside more. I live in Canada and our winters are horrible...we have lots of days were the temp is -31C or more. I just don't take the kids outside much in the winter for temperature reasons and also because it can take upwards of three quarters of an hour to bundle and unbundle all of the children and we usually only last outside for about 5 minutes before someone is screaming to go back in. So I told the daycare mom that this was fine with me but asked her to make sure she paid for her proper notice to which she agreed to.
Where I live proper noticed when terming a space is one month. In my business I ask for a deposit when a daycare family starts with me. This deposit is then put towards their last two weeks of childcare with a 6 week written notice when terming a daycare space. I do it this way because I do not refund deposits in cash (service only) and I still need a full month's paid notice to ensure I can securely fill that space before the next month begins.
When this pecticular family began care with me my computer was on the fritz and I was unable to get them a copy of my contract. I verbally went through everything in the contract with them including what would be needed for notice when it came to terming. The family agreed to follow my policies.
So after the dm agreed to honor proper notice requirements she proceeded to show up at my home the day after and demand that I refund her deposit in cash. I immediately reminded her about my policies on notice and deposits and brought to her attention that this was all agreed upon. However, she said because she didn't have a signed contract she did not have to follow my policies and continued to demand her deposit be refunded in cash. This went on and on for nearly 15 minutes before I refused to provide care for her daughter that day. My reasoning was that she already had me completely frazzled and I did not need to deal with the stress of knowing I would have to deal with her again at the end of the day. I will also note that the dad was not working that day the only reason for my services was for him to run errands so there was no reason why he couldn't take care of his daughter. At no point did I say I would not provide services the following day or that I would not finish off the month with them. I just felt it best everyone cool down and collect themselves first.
The dad them proceeding to text and harass me all afternoon, he claimed he would be coming the next morning when I opened the daycare to collect the deposit. I asked him to not come on my property and harass me and that being I have other children in my care I would take legal action if I had to if he were harrassing me during daycare hours and would not leave. At this point he threatened to take me to small claims court for the deposit plus the rest of the month that was paid for.
I talked to my friends father who is a lawyer and he advised that I take with me three signed contracts from other families in my care (past and present) to show the court how I conduct my business and prove that other families in my care are all under the 6 week written notice when terming a daycare space. Therefore providing evidence that this would have been the same policy I would have gone over with this daycare family. He feels that there is very little chance that this family will win in court even without having signed a contract with me, however I am just so stressed out about having to go through the whole process. Any advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated!
Here's the story...
DM comes to me and informs me that she is going to change daycares due to the fact that she wants her daughter going outside more. I live in Canada and our winters are horrible...we have lots of days were the temp is -31C or more. I just don't take the kids outside much in the winter for temperature reasons and also because it can take upwards of three quarters of an hour to bundle and unbundle all of the children and we usually only last outside for about 5 minutes before someone is screaming to go back in. So I told the daycare mom that this was fine with me but asked her to make sure she paid for her proper notice to which she agreed to.
Where I live proper noticed when terming a space is one month. In my business I ask for a deposit when a daycare family starts with me. This deposit is then put towards their last two weeks of childcare with a 6 week written notice when terming a daycare space. I do it this way because I do not refund deposits in cash (service only) and I still need a full month's paid notice to ensure I can securely fill that space before the next month begins.
When this pecticular family began care with me my computer was on the fritz and I was unable to get them a copy of my contract. I verbally went through everything in the contract with them including what would be needed for notice when it came to terming. The family agreed to follow my policies.
So after the dm agreed to honor proper notice requirements she proceeded to show up at my home the day after and demand that I refund her deposit in cash. I immediately reminded her about my policies on notice and deposits and brought to her attention that this was all agreed upon. However, she said because she didn't have a signed contract she did not have to follow my policies and continued to demand her deposit be refunded in cash. This went on and on for nearly 15 minutes before I refused to provide care for her daughter that day. My reasoning was that she already had me completely frazzled and I did not need to deal with the stress of knowing I would have to deal with her again at the end of the day. I will also note that the dad was not working that day the only reason for my services was for him to run errands so there was no reason why he couldn't take care of his daughter. At no point did I say I would not provide services the following day or that I would not finish off the month with them. I just felt it best everyone cool down and collect themselves first.
The dad them proceeding to text and harass me all afternoon, he claimed he would be coming the next morning when I opened the daycare to collect the deposit. I asked him to not come on my property and harass me and that being I have other children in my care I would take legal action if I had to if he were harrassing me during daycare hours and would not leave. At this point he threatened to take me to small claims court for the deposit plus the rest of the month that was paid for.
I talked to my friends father who is a lawyer and he advised that I take with me three signed contracts from other families in my care (past and present) to show the court how I conduct my business and prove that other families in my care are all under the 6 week written notice when terming a daycare space. Therefore providing evidence that this would have been the same policy I would have gone over with this daycare family. He feels that there is very little chance that this family will win in court even without having signed a contract with me, however I am just so stressed out about having to go through the whole process. Any advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated!
marniewon 09:24 AM 02-21-2011
I'm not an expert in law or anything, but the way I understood it, if you didn't have a signed contract then nothing in the contract or handbook is legally binding.
nannyde 09:24 AM 02-21-2011
I know you don't want to hear this but I think you should refund them in full.
Little People 09:33 AM 02-21-2011
I would think without a contract, you would have to refund the money.
Cat Herder 09:40 AM 02-21-2011
I have to agree with PP....you are not in a good spot to fight this.
Chalk it up to an expensive lesson.
Chalk it up to an expensive lesson.
kendallina 10:11 AM 02-21-2011
I agree with others, I would refund them everything that you haven't provided services for. The parents did not sign a contract, so there is nothing legally binding and I can't imagine a judge with side with you.
Also, if I am understanding this correctly you are requiring 6 weeks notice before a family terms? That seems way excessive. Maybe I read that wrong...
Also, if I am understanding this correctly you are requiring 6 weeks notice before a family terms? That seems way excessive. Maybe I read that wrong...
Cat Herder 10:16 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by kendallina:
I agree with others, I would refund them everything that you haven't provided services for. The parents did not sign a contract, so there is nothing legally binding and I can't imagine a judge with side with you.
Also, if I am understanding this correctly you are requiring 6 weeks notice before a family terms? That seems way excessive. Maybe I read that wrong...
That is what I read, too... They paid for 6 weeks, but were turned away at the door on day one after notice.....I agree with others, I would refund them everything that you haven't provided services for. The parents did not sign a contract, so there is nothing legally binding and I can't imagine a judge with side with you.
Also, if I am understanding this correctly you are requiring 6 weeks notice before a family terms? That seems way excessive. Maybe I read that wrong...
Unregistered 10:31 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by kendallina:
I agree with others, I would refund them everything that you haven't provided services for. The parents did not sign a contract, so there is nothing legally binding and I can't imagine a judge with side with you.
Also, if I am understanding this correctly you are requiring 6 weeks notice before a family terms? That seems way excessive. Maybe I read that wrong...
I require one month of paid notice when terming a daycare space, the deposit is then refunded to the family in two additional weeks of free services as I do not refund deposits to hold spaces in cash. I'm sorry that you feel that is excessive but where I live this is a typical daycare notice so am only following what others in my area do.I agree with others, I would refund them everything that you haven't provided services for. The parents did not sign a contract, so there is nothing legally binding and I can't imagine a judge with side with you.
Also, if I am understanding this correctly you are requiring 6 weeks notice before a family terms? That seems way excessive. Maybe I read that wrong...
gbcc 10:16 AM 02-21-2011
It's true you are in a position due to lack of contract. I would have made her sign it as soon as your computer was functioning or at least written up a notice by hand.
I would not refund the money though. On the other side of things, why would they give you money if they did not know and agree to this contract? They just felt like over paying you for 6 weeks? No I don't think so lol! They will need a good reason for giving you that amount of money if it was not for a deposit. As far as paying a month in advance. They should have known that they were changing daycares before they paid you so that is all on them I would think. As far for you not finishing off the time agreed upon it sounds like you had no choice for the safety of the other children.
I would not refund the money though. On the other side of things, why would they give you money if they did not know and agree to this contract? They just felt like over paying you for 6 weeks? No I don't think so lol! They will need a good reason for giving you that amount of money if it was not for a deposit. As far as paying a month in advance. They should have known that they were changing daycares before they paid you so that is all on them I would think. As far for you not finishing off the time agreed upon it sounds like you had no choice for the safety of the other children.
Unregistered 10:28 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by gbcc:
It's true you are in a position due to lack of contract. I would have made her sign it as soon as your computer was functioning or at least written up a notice by hand.
I would not refund the money though. On the other side of things, why would they give you money if they did not know and agree to this contract? They just felt like over paying you for 6 weeks? No I don't think so lol! They will need a good reason for giving you that amount of money if it was not for a deposit. As far as paying a month in advance. They should have known that they were changing daycares before they paid you so that is all on them I would think. As far for you not finishing off the time agreed upon it sounds like you had no choice for the safety of the other children.
When the mom showed up at my home demanding I refund her deposit in cash I did not refuse services to her for the rest of the month. I refused services to her for that day as she has me frazzled and I would have been stressed out all day knowing that I would have to deal with her again at the end of the day. I refused services for that day for my health and well being especially since I was caring for other people's children.It's true you are in a position due to lack of contract. I would have made her sign it as soon as your computer was functioning or at least written up a notice by hand.
I would not refund the money though. On the other side of things, why would they give you money if they did not know and agree to this contract? They just felt like over paying you for 6 weeks? No I don't think so lol! They will need a good reason for giving you that amount of money if it was not for a deposit. As far as paying a month in advance. They should have known that they were changing daycares before they paid you so that is all on them I would think. As far for you not finishing off the time agreed upon it sounds like you had no choice for the safety of the other children.
When the dad started texting me and harrassing me and threatening to show up on my property during daycare hours to harrass me for the deposit to be refunded in cash that is when I asked him not to come on my property and harrass me. I actually did not even say here that I would no longer provide services for the rest of the month. Only that he was not to show up on my property and harrass me.
It was the families choice and their actions that in term caused them to be out the month of daycare. Had they showed up the next day and apologized to me I would have finished off the month with them. At no point did I said I refused to finish off the month and absoulotely think that's it's completely unfair that a parent can go ahead and harass a provider to the point that she has to ask them to leave because of the stress they are causing and then turn around and ask for a refund of their money when it was their choice to act the way they did in the first place.
Stacy214 10:30 AM 02-22-2011
Originally Posted by gbcc:
It's true you are in a position due to lack of contract. I would have made her sign it as soon as your computer was functioning or at least written up a notice by hand.
I would not refund the money though. On the other side of things, why would they give you money if they did not know and agree to this contract? They just felt like over paying you for 6 weeks? No I don't think so lol! They will need a good reason for giving you that amount of money if it was not for a deposit. As far as paying a month in advance. They should have known that they were changing daycares before they paid you so that is all on them I would think. As far for you not finishing off the time agreed upon it sounds like you had no choice for the safety of the other children.
I absolutely agree 100% I probably wouldn't refund the money, and take a risk with what the attorney said. It's worth a shot. Absolutely chalk it up to a lesson learned, sorry it happened. I always try to see the good in people and sometimes we get burned.It's true you are in a position due to lack of contract. I would have made her sign it as soon as your computer was functioning or at least written up a notice by hand.
I would not refund the money though. On the other side of things, why would they give you money if they did not know and agree to this contract? They just felt like over paying you for 6 weeks? No I don't think so lol! They will need a good reason for giving you that amount of money if it was not for a deposit. As far as paying a month in advance. They should have known that they were changing daycares before they paid you so that is all on them I would think. As far for you not finishing off the time agreed upon it sounds like you had no choice for the safety of the other children.
Cat Herder 10:36 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Where I live proper noticed when terming a space is one month. In my business I ask for a deposit when a daycare family starts with me. This deposit is then put towards their last two weeks of childcare with a 6 week written notice when terming a daycare space.
she said because she didn't have a signed contract she did not have to follow my policies and continued to demand her deposit be refunded in cash. This went on and on for nearly 15 minutes before I refused to provide care for her daughter that day. At no point did I say I would not provide services the following day or that I would not finish off the month with them. I just felt it best everyone cool down and collect themselves first.
At this point he threatened to take me to small claims court for the deposit plus the rest of the month that was paid for.
This is why I thought they were paid up 6 weeks and were turned away at the door....Where I live proper noticed when terming a space is one month. In my business I ask for a deposit when a daycare family starts with me. This deposit is then put towards their last two weeks of childcare with a 6 week written notice when terming a daycare space.
she said because she didn't have a signed contract she did not have to follow my policies and continued to demand her deposit be refunded in cash. This went on and on for nearly 15 minutes before I refused to provide care for her daughter that day. At no point did I say I would not provide services the following day or that I would not finish off the month with them. I just felt it best everyone cool down and collect themselves first.
At this point he threatened to take me to small claims court for the deposit plus the rest of the month that was paid for.
It is such a hard read in paragragh form 
marniewon 10:48 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
This is why I thought they were paid up 6 weeks and were turned away at the door.... It is such a hard read in paragragh form
Thanks, Catherder - you are right, it is a hard read that way, and I completely missed that.This is why I thought they were paid up 6 weeks and were turned away at the door....
It is such a hard read in paragragh form I have to agree with cillybean here. This provider needs to refund in full and step back and re-assess the business part of her business. Without the contract, you won't win in court, and then you'll have court costs to pay on top of the refund.
I do agree that you shouldn't have to put up with harassment from anyone, but the way I read it, it sounded like you were telling them they were no longer allowed to bring their child for care.
Unregistered 11:02 AM 02-21-2011
For the record a verbal agreement is binding in Canada if you can prove it. Taking in copies of past and present signed contracts shows a presidence of how you run your business therefore making it alot easier to prove what was involved in the verbal agreement. It would not make sense to have your contracting clients sign to a 6 week notice in order to gain a refund of their deposit in services and then provide the family in question with a verbal agreement of a one month notice with a refund of their deposit in cash. This contridicts how you run your business so having these documents present will help alot.
Little People 11:29 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
For the record a verbal agreement is binding in Canada if you can prove it. Taking in copies of past and present signed contracts shows a presidence of how you run your business therefore making it alot easier to prove what was involved in the verbal agreement. It would not make sense to have your contracting clients sign to a 6 week notice in order to gain a refund of their deposit in services and then provide the family in question with a verbal agreement of a one month notice with a refund of their deposit in cash. This contridicts how you run your business so having these documents present will help alot.
How long was this DC family with you?For the record a verbal agreement is binding in Canada if you can prove it. Taking in copies of past and present signed contracts shows a presidence of how you run your business therefore making it alot easier to prove what was involved in the verbal agreement. It would not make sense to have your contracting clients sign to a 6 week notice in order to gain a refund of their deposit in services and then provide the family in question with a verbal agreement of a one month notice with a refund of their deposit in cash. This contridicts how you run your business so having these documents present will help alot.
Unregistered 11:34 AM 02-21-2011
Originally Posted by Little People:
How long was this DC family with you?
This family was with me for five months.How long was this DC family with you?
jen 11:40 AM 02-21-2011
Huh, Personally, I would probably take it as a lesson learned and make sure I had a contract in the future. I do think it will be interesting to see how it turns out tho! Good luck! Let us know how it plays out at small claims!