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  #1  
Old 02-12-2015, 10:40 AM
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melilley melilley is offline
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Default Unbelievable Decision In A Provider's Small Claims Case!

I am a member of a fb page for provider's in my state. One of the provider's went to small claims court to recover lost monies from a dcf that left owing her money. Well, the dcp's ended up counter suing the provider for the cost of having to take their children to a different daycare from the hours of 3:30 until 6pm because the provider would be over after 3:30 because of the age groups we can have here and after school kids took that spot, and they won!

The judge ruled in the dcp's favor because he said she is open until 6 so they should be able to use those hours not matter the kids age. She also said the dcd worked thirds so he was home during those hours! The provider even had a contract that stated the hours that the parents agreed to and the judge didn't care, he just threw her case out! Now she has to pay the dcp's money for "lost wages". She's talking to her lawyer, I hope something happens.

I am just in shock. I can't believe the dcp's won the case, it makes no sense to me. I'm going to court next month and cases like this makes me nervous!
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  #2  
Old 02-12-2015, 10:45 AM
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Unbelievable!!! So our contracts are not worth they paper they are written on?
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:45 AM
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That does sound crappy! Hopefully she can appeal.

I wonder what Tom Copelands take on this is?

I also wonder if she discounted the parents? I don't discount if the parent chooses half days, but I would probably discount if I needed them to, KWIM? Might be something to think about for future reference.
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:47 AM
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Sounds to me like something in the provider's paperwork was either not right, or miscomumnicated.

I hope it will get straightened out with the help of an attorney.
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  #5  
Old 02-12-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by melilley View Post
I am a member of a fb page for provider's in my state. One of the provider's went to small claims court to recover lost monies from a dcf that left owing her money. Well, the dcp's ended up counter suing the provider for the cost of having to take their children to a different daycare from the hours of 3:30 until 6pm because the provider would be over after 3:30 because of the age groups we can have here and after school kids took that spot, and they won!

The judge ruled in the dcp's favor because he said she is open until 6 so they should be able to use those hours not matter the kids age. She also said the dcd worked thirds so he was home during those hours! The provider even had a contract that stated the hours that the parents agreed to and the judge didn't care, he just threw her case out! Now she has to pay the dcp's money for "lost wages". She's talking to her lawyer, I hope something happens.

I am just in shock. I can't believe the dcp's won the case, it makes no sense to me. I'm going to court next month and cases like this makes me nervous!
Hmm, I question the validity if this story as this is the 3rd different version of something like this happening that has been posted on different boards within the last few days.

One version was the provider was Canadian and the parents countersued the provider for calling CAS (Canadian version of CPS) and the provider now owes the parents $13,000....

Another version I heard was similar to the one you posted but the reasons the judge gave for awarding the family money was the provider did not follow her own contract and give the parents proper notice of the need to change hours due to ratios.

A third version circulating has the provider terming immediately and the parents not being able to find alternate care on such notice (more than one kid and difficult ages to find care for) and the parent won payment due to lost wages AND their 2 week notice money back because they weren't able to actually use the final two weeks.

Sooo, IF this story is actually true...I would like to see the "whole" story and not just the providers version.... but BOTH sides of it. I think the saying goes..."There is 3 sides to every story. Provider's side. Parent's side and the truth.

Also, if the story is true..... the people it actually involves should be aware of the other "versions" being passed around.
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Old 02-12-2015, 11:09 AM
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Hmm, I question the validity if this story as this is the 3rd different version of something like this happening that has been posted on different boards within the last few days.

One version was the provider was Canadian and the parents countersued the provider for calling CAS (Canadian version of CPS) and the provider now owes the parents $13,000....

Another version I heard was similar to the one you posted but the reasons the judge gave for awarding the family money was the provider did not follow her own contract and give the parents proper notice of the need to change hours due to ratios.

A third version circulating has the provider terming immediately and the parents not being able to find alternate care on such notice (more than one kid and difficult ages to find care for) and the parent won payment due to lost wages AND their 2 week notice money back because they weren't able to actually use the final two weeks.

Sooo, IF this story is actually true...I would like to see the "whole" story and not just the providers version.... but BOTH sides of it. I think the saying goes..."There is 3 sides to every story. Provider's side. Parent's side and the truth.

Also, if the story is true..... the people it actually involves should be aware of the other "versions" being passed around.
Hmmm who knows. Yes there are sides to every story, who knows if her contract was what she says.
You have probably read the post I'm talking about, I think we are a member of one of the same groups. I thought it was a group from my state, but it's for providers wherever...oops. The provider is from my state though, I just got groups mixed up.

I always tend to believe a lot of what people say. That's one of my weaknesses that I'm working on. I was just shocked when I read it.
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  #7  
Old 02-12-2015, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by melilley View Post
Hmmm who knows. Yes there are sides to every story, who knows if her contract was what she says.
You have probably read the post I'm talking about, I think we are a member of one of the same groups. I thought it was a group from my state, but it's for providers wherever...oops. The provider is from my state though, I just got groups mixed up.

I always tend to believe a lot of what people say. That's one of my weaknesses that I'm working on. I was just shocked when I read it.
I was too but the one thing that has me leaning towards this being untrue is that in one of the groups I am in, someone asked for a link or a photocopy of the judgment/notice and the poster immediately changed the story from "This happened to me" to "A friend of a friend of a friend"....

I am NOT saying the story you read is not true.....just sharing that I have read several VERY similar posts recently so I am inclined to question.

The story you read could very well be true and it just so happened to happen during a time when other "stories" are circulating...kwim?
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:01 PM
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I was too but the one thing that has me leaning towards this being untrue is that in one of the groups I am in, someone asked for a link or a photocopy of the judgment/notice and the poster immediately changed the story from "This happened to me" to "A friend of a friend of a friend"....

I am NOT saying the story you read is not true.....just sharing that I have read several VERY similar posts recently so I am inclined to question.

The story you read could very well be true and it just so happened to happen during a time when other "stories" are circulating...kwim?
Nice. I can't believe they changed their story.

Who knows. Maybe it's true, maybe not. If it is, it's messed up.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:03 PM
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Nice. I can't believe they changed their story.

Who knows. Maybe it's true, maybe not. If it is, it's messed up.
this whole Brian Williams thing has me a bit jaded I guess...
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  #10  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:06 PM
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Hey, BC, what are you talking about?????????

IF it's on the internet, it has to be true, RIGHT???
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  #11  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:08 PM
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Well, judge judy never goes by providers contracts
She thinks we are indentured servants or something. Maybe since she hasnt had a kid since maybe 1950.
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  #12  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:10 PM
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Well, judge judy never goes by providers contracts
She thinks we are indentured servants or something. Maybe since she hasnt had a kid since maybe 1950.
Lol. My husband loves Judge Judy. He would probably marry her if she was younger.
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:12 PM
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I have seen those stories as well, the Canadian one bothered me because of the CPS factor, a story like that can make people leery of calling to report something. If it's not a true story then this provider is really going out of her way to lie because she has many posts about it. She has also stated she wants as many providers/forums as possible to know about it. I can't understand why she would go to those lengths if it wasn't true ya know?
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:15 PM
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Hey, BC, what are you talking about?????????

IF it's on the internet, it has to be true, RIGHT???
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:18 PM
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Well, judge judy never goes by providers contracts
She thinks we are indentured servants or something. Maybe since she hasnt had a kid since maybe 1950.
The last two episodes I've watch of Judge Judy where the plaintiff was a child care provider, Judge Judy WHOLE HEARTEDLY supported the provider.

Same thing for the provider that is a member here that went on JJ. She won too.

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Originally Posted by NeedaVaca View Post
I have seen those stories as well, the Canadian one bothered me because of the CPS factor, a story like that can make people leery of calling to report something. If it's not a true story then this provider is really going out of her way to lie because she has many posts about it. She has also stated she wants as many providers/forums as possible to know about it. I can't understand why she would go to those lengths if it wasn't true ya know?
Attention. Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame and if that doesn't satisfy them, they add to it.
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  #16  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:24 PM
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I totally hear you and yes, there are a lot of crazy people out there. I generally don't believe a LOT of what I read online but this one...I don't know, she's posted on the forum multiple times in different threads leading all the way up to the event, it's on her personal facebook page and she did have a professional looking daycare website. I will be curious to see if more comes of it.
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  #17  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:52 PM
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If it is true, the dcp's could have very good contacts that are helping them.

I hate to go there, but after my divorce with my ex husband, who's attorney was his God father, and all the crookedness that I witnessed, and was told by many other attorneys, that this happens all the time...nothing surprises me with some of the judicial system rulings now.

Last edited by KiddieCahoots; 02-12-2015 at 12:54 PM. Reason: adding
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  #18  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NeedaVaca View Post
I totally hear you and yes, there are a lot of crazy people out there. I generally don't believe a LOT of what I read online but this one...I don't know, she's posted on the forum multiple times in different threads leading all the way up to the event, it's on her personal facebook page and she did have a professional looking daycare website. I will be curious to see if more comes of it.
OP of this thread though is from the US and said the provider telling the story is from her home state.

The one I "think" you are referring to is from Daycare Bear......which is predominantly Canadian...

Like I said, one or all of these stories may or may not be true....there are just so many of them.
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:54 PM
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Does anyone think the Canadian lady is lying??? I've been following that one and it just seems..... Off.
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  #20  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:32 AM
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Hey, BC, what are you talking about?????????

IF it's on the internet, it has to be true, RIGHT???
Bahaha
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  #21  
Old 02-13-2015, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NeedaVaca View Post
I have seen those stories as well, the Canadian one bothered me because of the CPS factor, a story like that can make people leery of calling to report something. If it's not a true story then this provider is really going out of her way to lie because she has many posts about it. She has also stated she wants as many providers/forums as possible to know about it. I can't understand why she would go to those lengths if it wasn't true ya know?
I'm almost wondering if this is the provider equivalent of an urban legend. Unlike the usual morals (don't go parking with boys, don't go into the basement when babysitting, etc. ) this one seems to speak to providers usual fears - being stiffed, having CPS (or Canadian equivalent) come after you...Almost like "don't get too big for your britches" kind of moral...

If this is a true story, then we are providers should be receiving some guidance as to how to word contracts so that we are not losing in small claims, etc.
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:17 AM
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Well here is her post back in August 2013 about why she called CAS...this has been dragging out for a really long time. I read all of her threads and updates till current and think it does have some truth to it, obviously this is just her side of the story though. It could be that she had very bad luck with a judge, it does happen...

http://www.daycarebear.ca/forum/show...ad-to-call-CAS

If you click on her user name you can see all of her posts to see what the outcome was and what happened leading up to it.
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  #23  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by NeedaVaca View Post
Well here is her post back in August 2013 about why she called CAS...this has been dragging out for a really long time. I read all of her threads and updates till current and think it does have some truth to it, obviously this is just her side of the story though. It could be that she had very bad luck with a judge, it does happen...

http://www.daycarebear.ca/forum/show...ad-to-call-CAS

If you click on her user name you can see all of her posts to see what the outcome was and what happened leading up to it.
I think this one is legit. I've been following her story for a couple of years now. She's one my province wide FB group, asking people to write in to their local MPs (I guess like a Senator? I'm not sure of the US equivalent) with her story to hopefully gain some political support for her appeal.
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  #24  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:20 AM
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Default I am that Canadian lady

Hi fellow providers, I just happened to come up on this forum and seen peoples post. I assure you that in fact I did make a referral to a society with regards to concerns I had and a judge did rule in the families favour. I lost my case because I didn't have great representation. He didn't even subpoena the worker to testify on my behalf. I actually just did an interview with a well know news channel in Toronto and the reporter is ordering the transcripts to support my claims. The story should air sometime early next week. On Monday or Tuesday. I hope then people will believe my story and ensure what happened to me will not happen to you. Thanks to all who have believed in me and supported me throughout this whole ordeal. I do understand how many believe the story is fishy...it's because it's so shocking.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:35 AM
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Default Canadian lady

I also just wanted to add that like another person posted I did ask providers to write letters to be sent to MPPs and I asked for people to directly email the Children's aid supervisor to voice how the ruling in my case would impact them and their decision to ever report suspicions. If I were lying and making up this story one can easily look up the contact info of the email I provided and see for themselves that the person is in fact an employee of CAS.
Tbh my intentions was to gain support from fellow supporters and to educate them on this possibly happening to them as crazy as it seems. I'm kind of hurt that many believed that my story was one big plot to gain attention.
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:04 AM
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Canadian lady please don't be offended. Unfortunatley in this day and age anyone can say anything and sometimes even though it sounds out if this world it is true. But how are others to know??? People may want proof to back up what you say. It in no way means disrespect. Will you post links to the interview when it is available on the net?? I am not from canada and likely won't be able to see it otherwise.
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:26 AM
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Yes I guess you are right. I myself may perhaps feel as other do...without knowing all the details. I will most defiantly post the links of the interview. People need to be aware of loop holes in the (CFSA) child and family services act of Ontario. I know that this case also could set a precedent in other provinces and perhaps even in the States since it can now be used as case law. I am now concentrating on advocacy and putting pressure on the government to change the legislation.
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  #28  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:35 AM
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Canadian lady please don't be offended. Unfortunatley in this day and age anyone can say anything and sometimes even though it sounds out if this world it is true. But how are others to know??? People may want proof to back up what you say. It in no way means disrespect. Will you post links to the interview when it is available on the net?? I am not from canada and likely won't be able to see it otherwise.
I agree, without YOUR side (Canadian provider) of the story, we only know what has been spread around the internet and have no idea how to know what is and isn't truth.

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Yes I guess you are right. I myself may perhaps feel as other do...without knowing all the details. I will most defiantly post the links of the interview. People need to be aware of loop holes in the (CFSA) child and family services act of Ontario. I know that this case also could set a precedent in other provinces and perhaps even in the States since it can now be used as case law. I am now concentrating on advocacy and putting pressure on the government to change the legislation.
I am glad you are doing something positive with this but it's important to remember that US courts are a lot different than Canadian courts and if I had a dispute with a DCF, I would use conciliation court (small claims court) and most conciliation courts don't allow the use of an attorney or allow defendants or plaintiffs to have an attorney in court with them. We can consult one but that's it.

The way the child care system works and functions in Canada is so much different than the US and then in the US each state is vastly different too so...


HOWEVER~ It would be super enlightening and informational if you would consider registering with the forum and posting YOUR side of this story. We have lots of Canadian forum members and I am betting every single one of them would love to hear what really happened from the person it happened to.
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:58 AM
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I'm not sure I want to register ATM, however I will say a bit about my story.

In 2013 I had a child in my care that I was concerned about, IMO there was a pattern of neglect and I reported my suspicions after voicing my concerns and see no change. The CAS did an investigation. I took the family to court for stopping a payment on services rendered and they ended up counter using me for emotional harm because of my report.

We had trial and In the (CFSA) basically states that no action can be made against a reporter unless the report was made out of malice or had no reasonable grounds.

The judge in my case ruled that I didn't report out of malice but he believes that I did not have reasonable grounds for my referral. He ordered I pay over 13000$ in damages.

My paralegal IMO didn't represent me well, he did not subpoena the worker...I know with speaking with them during this whole ordeal would have testified on my behalf and would have stated that I had a duty to report and I had reasonable grounds and that a reporter does not need to be sure there is abuse/neglect that's the CASs job to investigate. I believe this is why I lost my case.

The CAS and other government agencies were shocked to learn about the outcome of my case and will be helping me advocate for change.

This pretty much sums up the case. I will post the link once the story airs, in the interview I do talk more about my suspicions.
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Old 03-18-2015, 10:03 AM
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I'm not sure I want to register ATM, however I will say a bit about my story.

In 2013 I had a child in my care that I was concerned about, IMO there was a pattern of neglect and I reported my suspicions after voicing my concerns and see no change. The CAS did an investigation. I took the family to court for stopping a payment on services rendered and they ended up counter using me for emotional harm because of my report.

We had trial and In the (CFSA) basically states that no action can be made against a reporter unless the report was made out of malice or had no reasonable grounds.

The judge in my case ruled that I didn't report out of malice but he believes that I did not have reasonable grounds for my referral. He ordered I pay over 13000$ in damages.

My paralegal IMO didn't represent me well, he did not subpoena the worker...I know with speaking with them during this whole ordeal would have testified on my behalf and would have stated that I had a duty to report and I had reasonable grounds and that a reporter does not need to be sure there is abuse/neglect that's the CASs job to investigate. I believe this is why I lost my case.

The CAS and other government agencies were shocked to learn about the outcome of my case and will be helping me advocate for change.

This pretty much sums up the case. I will post the link once the story airs, in the interview I do talk more about my suspicions.
Wow! Do you guys have an option to appeal a ruling?

It sounds so simple so I am floored that the law regarding protection for mandated reporters was so blatantly ignored.

Are you registered with an agency or were/are you an independent provider (I can't remember what the difference is in Canada...sorry)

Also as an FYI, your identity would not be known (just your username) if you do decide to register AND as a registered member of the forum you would have access to the "off topic" area which is ONLY for registered members so no one unregistered would see anything you post.

If you decide to remain unregistered, that's cool too.
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  #31  
Old 03-18-2015, 10:21 AM
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Wow! Do you guys have an option to appeal a ruling?

It sounds so simple so I am floored that the law regarding protection for mandated reporters was so blatantly ignored.

Are you registered with an agency or were/are you an independent provider (I can't remember what the difference is in Canada...sorry)

Also as an FYI, your identity would not be known (just your username) if you do decide to register AND as a registered member of the forum you would have access to the "off topic" area which is ONLY for registered members so no one unregistered would see anything you post.

If you decide to remain unregistered, that's cool too.
I registered an account. Thank you blackcat..

I am just as confused as you are, a lot of people thought the case would have been thrown out and defiantly not ruled against me. This sets a presentment. I recently found a press release from an association in Ontario that governs all the different societies in the province. In this release it basically stated that there was over 171000 referral made to a society and of that over 81000 were investigated and of that 31000 were closed. So my case allows all the informants who's referral was closed or not investigated to be sued in a court of law. They then would have to prove their suspensions. It's a scary precedent.

Here is the link for more specifics. http://www.oacas.org/newsroom/releas...14_CAPM_NR.pdf

I was an independent childcare provider and not affiliated with any agency. Also just to point out that many daycare insurance companies don't cover being sued for defamation or emotional harm.
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:26 AM
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This story is so horrible in so many ways however the judge really had no choice because no witnesses were called. If the CAS worker had been called then he would have ruled in her favour. I am really hoping this case gets overturned but in an appeal you can't produce any new information so a new judge will simply look over what was already presented.

Hope it goes your way Canadian Lady!! I am rooting for you
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:01 PM
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This story is so horrible in so many ways however the judge really had no choice because no witnesses were called. If the CAS worker had been called then he would have ruled in her favour. I am really hoping this case gets overturned but in an appeal you can't produce any new information so a new judge will simply look over what was already presented.

Hope it goes your way Canadian Lady!! I am rooting for you
You are right in an appeal in Ontario it's hard and costly to fight to get new evidence and witnesses in an appeal and it is very rarely allowed. Unfortunately for me the deadline for an appeal has passed. The Society did find a lawyer for me that would work pro bono but I would still be required to pay for all dispersments which can be 8000$. And if I lost the appeal I would be looking at paying 40 000$ or more. It was a very hard decision to decide to not appeal but I couldn't financially afford it. So I'm left having to pay the judgment. This is why I am fighting for changes...I'm your average dcp and we all know we don't make much. It's hard for me to wrap my head around paying the judgement so I tell myself it's all for a reason and that must be to fight to change the legislation to ensure this does not happen again.

I did have witnesses in my case,however they were not expert witnesses. the other side did not have any witnesses. I believe also had the right questions been asked and IMO the judge was not biased I think things could have turned out differently. In the end what I learned at what is reasonable grounds for me may not be reasonable to someone else. With that being said this ruling still sets a precedent and is a slipper slope in that reasonable grounds will now be up to interpretation by a judge. This is scary in that now people will now be afraid that their feeling, suspicion may not be enough in a court of law and then therefore choose not to make a report. Even though the society may feel your report would be reasonable and therefor will put all children at risk. I believe that no one should have to fear being sued when trying to protect the child with no ill will.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:33 PM
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I don't see how a judge can do that. I mean if everyone fears being the one to report, who will ever report? It seems counter effective.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:43 PM
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I don't see how a judge can do that. I mean if everyone fears being the one to report, who will ever report? It seems counter effective.
Exactly, that's why it's so shocking. Im sure that the society will be putting out a statement expressing their concerns on how this ruling will impact the safety of children. This is why I wanted to share my story...it's to gain support and so people will be outraged that this could happen and help put pressure on the government to make changes.
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Old 03-18-2015, 03:14 PM
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Ariana Ariana is offline
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This is so ridiculous and just another way that shows that we as caregivers get ZERO respect for doing our jobs

You did the right thing and don't ever forget it. People all over Canada (and now the USA) are heart sick for you. It was a gross miscarriage of justice and that judge should be ashamed.
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:03 AM
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More on the story:

http://www.citynews.ca/2015/03/24/ex...ected-neglect/
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:14 AM
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try that again:

http://www.citynews.ca/2015/03/24/ex...ected-neglect/
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:16 AM
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Blackcat31 Blackcat31 is offline
 
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Neither of those links work.

Is this the story you are trying to link to?

http://www.citynews.ca/2015/03/24/ex...ected-neglect/
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