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Old 09-28-2016, 04:37 PM
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Default Son thrown out of PreK - Disruptive Behavior (Never Communicated)

My twins (boy and girl) had been going to the same daycare since they were four months old. They are now almost five years old and had just started PreK at the same facility.

Last week my son had a bad day at school were he was written up five times. The first time was for biting in the morning (highly unusual for him) one of his best friends. Said he as playing a game with his friend, and it was an accident. The second time was for kicking a teacher (while she was trying to bring him to the director for 'time-out' for the aforementioned incident. My son said teacher was picking him up because he didn't want to leave the room for punishment and hurt his tummy, so he flailed around causing the kick). The next three time we're all end of day playground related, shoving other children. For these, the writeups were all 15 minutes apart. Said he was removed from group as solution, but obviously reintroduced shortly thereafter. Is it me, or were their diffusion and reintroduction techniques extremely flawed.

The director asked to speak to my wife and I the next day, where she told us that my son was being kicked out of the program. She cited ongoing disruptive behavior as the cause. But this behavior was never discussed with us as parents. These five writeups were highly unusual for my son. The only documented writeups were few and far between, at least 4-6 months since last 'playground' incident. The director said that not all instances were documented because they typically don't write a report of no 'marks are left'. Is this standard? Is this legal? Seems scary as a parent that you wouldn't document these things, especially if you are now substantiating an expulsion on undocumented incidents.

Director said that the 'afternoon' director had conversations with my wife verbally during pickup many times, which wife says never happened. Director mentioned feedback from parent teacher conferences, which was also never the case. We have the Mid and end of year progress report documents that mention nothing if the sort. I told her that if this behavior was really happening, that the school massively let us down as parents, never giving us a chance to address it with our son directly and taken measures to correct. Am I crazy to think that going from no notice of a problem (or few and far between) to expulsion was a crazy leap? My kids were DESTROYED that they were going to need to change schools instead of graduating PreK with all of the children that they had grown up with.

I asked to speak to the owner of the school who made the final decision. The director said he would contact me that night, but he never did. Next morning he called but not to discuss his decision, but to firm up our payment due for the month. I seemed to catch him off guard by asking him if he realized that he was speaking to the father of the child that he just kicked out of his school. He did not. He asked that I give him five minutes so that he could 'pull the file'. He never called back, I suspect out of cowardice.

I decided immediately not to send my children back to the school even though the 'discharge' was delayed until the end of the month. If my son was such a liability, why let him still come to school for two weeks? I suspect so that they could bill me for a whole month. They claim a courtesy.

Two weeks have passed, and I just received a letter from the owner stating that I owe him for the month. And that the 'enrollment guide' that I signed 4 years ago says that I must provide two weeks notice or be responsible for payment. And the fact that I removed my children ahead of the 2-week courtesy, plays no role- says I owe for entire month.

I can't articulate how furious I am with how this all cruelly went down, the impact to my children's emotional state, and now his letter for payment. Especially after blowing off my call, and never having the decency to talk to me before, throughout, or after this all happened.

I am strongly compelled to not pay a dime here. What would you do? I'm willing to go to court.

The funny thing here is that the school had just stopped taking credit cards a few weeks before this all went down. Where they would normally auto charge the card, the no longer could. So I would have paid them with a check this month, and all subsequent months, had this not all went down. Karma?
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  #2  
Old 09-28-2016, 06:50 PM
bmlandino
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I would think they would have written documentation of the behavioral issues leading up to this. Most conferences are documented, as well as incident and incident reports.

However, 5 write ups in a day alone is reason enough for most daycares to terminate care. That kind of physical violence against students and teachers would be a lot to take.

I understand the seriousness of your children having to switch daycares, but I also think the effect of that behavior on the other students and teachers mental and physical well being is just as important.

As far as payment, if they gave you 4 weeks notice, and you didn't oppose or immediately put in a two week notice, then you still owe them for all 4 weeks. Legally speaking. Since they listed the last day of care, as 4 weeks from then, and it went uncontested...That's the date that sticks.
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  #3  
Old 09-28-2016, 07:07 PM
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Leigh Leigh is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
My twins (boy and girl) had been going to the same daycare since they were four months old. They are now almost five years old and had just started PreK at the same facility.

Last week my son had a bad day at school were he was written up five times. The first time was for biting in the morning (highly unusual for him) one of his best friends. Said he as playing a game with his friend, and it was an accident. The second time was for kicking a teacher (while she was trying to bring him to the director for 'time-out' for the aforementioned incident. My son said teacher was picking him up because he didn't want to leave the room for punishment and hurt his tummy, so he flailed around causing the kick). The next three time we're all end of day playground related, shoving other children. For these, the writeups were all 15 minutes apart. Said he was removed from group as solution, but obviously reintroduced shortly thereafter. Is it me, or were their diffusion and reintroduction techniques extremely flawed.

The director asked to speak to my wife and I the next day, where she told us that my son was being kicked out of the program. She cited ongoing disruptive behavior as the cause. But this behavior was never discussed with us as parents. These five writeups were highly unusual for my son. The only documented writeups were few and far between, at least 4-6 months since last 'playground' incident. The director said that not all instances were documented because they typically don't write a report of no 'marks are left'. Is this standard? Is this legal? Seems scary as a parent that you wouldn't document these things, especially if you are now substantiating an expulsion on undocumented incidents.

Director said that the 'afternoon' director had conversations with my wife verbally during pickup many times, which wife says never happened. Director mentioned feedback from parent teacher conferences, which was also never the case. We have the Mid and end of year progress report documents that mention nothing if the sort. I told her that if this behavior was really happening, that the school massively let us down as parents, never giving us a chance to address it with our son directly and taken measures to correct. Am I crazy to think that going from no notice of a problem (or few and far between) to expulsion was a crazy leap? My kids were DESTROYED that they were going to need to change schools instead of graduating PreK with all of the children that they had grown up with.

I asked to speak to the owner of the school who made the final decision. The director said he would contact me that night, but he never did. Next morning he called but not to discuss his decision, but to firm up our payment due for the month. I seemed to catch him off guard by asking him if he realized that he was speaking to the father of the child that he just kicked out of his school. He did not. He asked that I give him five minutes so that he could 'pull the file'. He never called back, I suspect out of cowardice.

I decided immediately not to send my children back to the school even though the 'discharge' was delayed until the end of the month. If my son was such a liability, why let him still come to school for two weeks? I suspect so that they could bill me for a whole month. They claim a courtesy.

Two weeks have passed, and I just received a letter from the owner stating that I owe him for the month. And that the 'enrollment guide' that I signed 4 years ago says that I must provide two weeks notice or be responsible for payment. And the fact that I removed my children ahead of the 2-week courtesy, plays no role- says I owe for entire month.

I can't articulate how furious I am with how this all cruelly went down, the impact to my children's emotional state, and now his letter for payment. Especially after blowing off my call, and never having the decency to talk to me before, throughout, or after this all happened.

I am strongly compelled to not pay a dime here. What would you do? I'm willing to go to court.

The funny thing here is that the school had just stopped taking credit cards a few weeks before this all went down. Where they would normally auto charge the card, the no longer could. So I would have paid them with a check this month, and all subsequent months, had this not all went down. Karma?
First, I can see that you're hurt as a parent that your child was kicked out of Pre-K, and probably that your son has behaviors that are out of control-neither is easy for a parent to deal with. You had no control over the situation, you're understandably defensive (who isn't when it comes to their child?), and you say that there was not enough communication from the school.

I think it's laudable that they let him get up to five incidents, personally. A child that age who bit someone would have been let go from my childcare on the spot. It's too old to be biting. I wouldn't have let him finish the day, but called you to come pick him up immediately, and not allowed him back again. Biting is something that's normal for TWO year olds, not nearly 5 year olds. That fact that your son bit at all should be setting off all sorts of alarm bells in your head.

Your post indicates that you HAVE been notified of problem behaviors in the past. There was a history. The behavior you described would be something that most any childcare would terminate care for, especially if there was any history of such behaviors in the past. Most childcares don't notify parents of every incident-if something were truly out of character for a child, it might be brought up out of concern for the child's well-being, but it sounds to me like there IS a history.

I think that you're defensive because you were shocked by him getting kicked out, because perhaps you feel that you're being judged as a parent, and because you had no control over the incident-all are understandable reasons for you to feel this way.

The fact that the director didn't call you back angers you because you didn't have the opportunity to defend your son's bad behavior and maybe because you didn't have the opportunity to give him or her a piece of your mind. Let it go. No good will come from such a phone call. Nothing will change the school's mind. It's time to deal with reality.

Reality is: Your son has a behavior issue that the school is no longer willing to tolerate or try to cure. It's now on YOU to do so, and it's time to get going with it. Personally, I'd schedule a psych eval by a PSYCHIATRIST, not a counselor, psychologist, or therapist, were it MY child, and have him screened for anything that might cause these behaviors. Oppositional Defiant Disorder, ADHD, Depression, and many more could be the cause. Once you have an answer, find a GOOD therapist to work with, and take the psychiatrist's and therapist's recommendations and follow them.

A child's personality is pretty much cemented by age 7 or 8. After that, he pretty much is who he is. You DO have time to change his path for the future, and that's what I would focus on: getting him better. A child doesn't act this way for no reason, and the behavior is absolutely not "normal" behavior. He needs help, and I hope you get it for him.

As far as the money thing: If your contract states that you owe the money, then you owe the money. It's something you agreed to. Going to court is an option, but you'll likely lose.
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:32 PM
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mommyneedsadayoff mommyneedsadayoff is online now
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If they kicked you out, then I wouldn't expect to you to pay, as you chose to not bring them back. If my kid was terminated, I would do the same. Now, there are some contracts that have differences between immediate terminal action (they won't let you come back at all) and termination with notice. In some cases, you still pay for the notice period even if it is the provider who gives it. I would read your contract for clarification. As for the behavior stuff, it's hard to give much advice bc I don't know you or your child. Either he is a good kid with a few behavior issues and the school doesn't want to deal with him for whatever reason (may have nothing to do with his behavior, but the write ups could have been the last straw so to speak), or he has severe issues and you and your wife are not telling the whole story. Either way, it's done, so look for new care and check your contract. If you go to court, get your ducks in a row and plead your case. I would think a judge would side with not paying if they terminated services due to behavior. As you said, if he is a liability, why would they keep him any longer? I don't know enough about small claims court, but start with the contract you signed and go from there. Best of luck to you!
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  #5  
Old 09-29-2016, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
First, I can see that you're hurt as a parent that your child was kicked out of Pre-K, and probably that your son has behaviors that are out of control-neither is easy for a parent to deal with. You had no control over the situation, you're understandably defensive (who isn't when it comes to their child?), and you say that there was not enough communication from the school.

I think it's laudable that they let him get up to five incidents, personally. A child that age who bit someone would have been let go from my childcare on the spot. It's too old to be biting. I wouldn't have let him finish the day, but called you to come pick him up immediately, and not allowed him back again. Biting is something that's normal for TWO year olds, not nearly 5 year olds. That fact that your son bit at all should be setting off all sorts of alarm bells in your head.

Your post indicates that you HAVE been notified of problem behaviors in the past. There was a history. The behavior you described would be something that most any childcare would terminate care for, especially if there was any history of such behaviors in the past. Most childcares don't notify parents of every incident-if something were truly out of character for a child, it might be brought up out of concern for the child's well-being, but it sounds to me like there IS a history.

I think that you're defensive because you were shocked by him getting kicked out, because perhaps you feel that you're being judged as a parent, and because you had no control over the incident-all are understandable reasons for you to feel this way.

The fact that the director didn't call you back angers you because you didn't have the opportunity to defend your son's bad behavior and maybe because you didn't have the opportunity to give him or her a piece of your mind. Let it go. No good will come from such a phone call. Nothing will change the school's mind. It's time to deal with reality.

Reality is: Your son has a behavior issue that the school is no longer willing to tolerate or try to cure. It's now on YOU to do so, and it's time to get going with it. Personally, I'd schedule a psych eval by a PSYCHIATRIST, not a counselor, psychologist, or therapist, were it MY child, and have him screened for anything that might cause these behaviors. Oppositional Defiant Disorder, ADHD, Depression, and many more could be the cause. Once you have an answer, find a GOOD therapist to work with, and take the psychiatrist's and therapist's recommendations and follow them.

A child's personality is pretty much cemented by age 7 or 8. After that, he pretty much is who he is. You DO have time to change his path for the future, and that's what I would focus on: getting him better. A child doesn't act this way for no reason, and the behavior is absolutely not "normal" behavior. He needs help, and I hope you get it for him.

As far as the money thing: If your contract states that you owe the money, then you owe the money. It's something you agreed to. Going to court is an option, but you'll likely lose.


A 5 year old biting AND kicking a teacher?!

Not normal and in no way acceptable and something I would have terminated for immediately.

As far as the money goes... I don't know what your contract says but when you are looking it up, make sure you pay attention to the section that discusses behavior issues and injuries to other children and staff because if you choose to pursue the money side of things, you may find that the school was already pretty lax in dealing with or managing your child's behaviors and didn't terminate before...

I have a hard time believing your 5 yr old son simply had one bad day and exhibited all those behaviors suddenly and without warning. If that truly is the case then Leigh's advice is even more spot on and your child needs help.

Please do your child a huge benefit and stop focusing on the money and focus on the REAL issues happening. 10 years from now, paying for 2 weeks of services that you didn't get will be small beans.
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  #6  
Old 09-29-2016, 08:52 AM
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Pre-K has both student and parent handbooks with very clear cut discipline policies.

Typically the same one that your public school system follows. It is given in hard copy to parents upon enrollment, one signed and returned, one you kept.

It outlines the schools responsibilities, your child's responsibilities and your responsibilities. It is available to print online as well, at any time. It is part of the federal funding.

Your child having to be carried out of the classroom, in full tantrum, at that age is alarming. Making excuses for your child becoming violent with an adult is inexcusable. It is assault on a teacher.

This sort of situation is why police are in the schools, now. It isn't good. It teaches kids that it is them against the teachers/police. It sets them up for a life of violence and crime. How will kids get an education if nobody is willing to teach them. How will they have fulfilling careers and earning potential without an education?

Teachers have civil rights, too.

Yes, your child is only 5. NOW is the time to rein it in HARD, while you still can. One the shock wears off, It will look so different.
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmlandino View Post
I would think they would have written documentation of the behavioral issues leading up to this. Most conferences are documented, as well as incident and incident reports.

However, 5 write ups in a day alone is reason enough for most daycares to terminate care. That kind of physical violence against students and teachers would be a lot to take.

I understand the seriousness of your children having to switch daycares, but I also think the effect of that behavior on the other students and teachers mental and physical well being is just as important.

As far as payment, if they gave you 4 weeks notice, and you didn't oppose or immediately put in a two week notice, then you still owe them for all 4 weeks. Legally speaking. Since they listed the last day of care, as 4 weeks from then, and it went uncontested...That's the date that sticks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
Pre-K has both student and parent handbooks with very clear cut discipline policies.

Typically the same one that your public school system follows. It is given in hard copy to parents upon enrollment, one signed and returned, one you kept.

It outlines the schools responsibilities, your child's responsibilities and your responsibilities. It is available to print online as well, at any time. It is part of the federal funding.

Your child having to be carried out of the classroom, in full tantrum, at that age is alarming. Making excuses for your child becoming violent with an adult is inexcusable. It is assault on a teacher.

This sort of situation is why police are in the schools, now. It isn't good. It teaches kids that it is them against the teachers/police. It sets them up for a life of violence and crime. How will kids get an education if nobody is willing to teach them. How will they have fulfilling careers and earning potential without an education?

Teachers have civil rights, too.

Yes, your child is only 5. NOW is the time to rein it in HARD, while you still can. One the shock wears off, It will look so different.

YES! Oh my gosh! I have never had a five year old behave that way in my preschool classroom and would have called for immediate pickup had a child bit or kicked anyone.

"Only 5" ugh. The behavior was brought up more than once- and only when MARKS were left? He is a HUGE liability. Not daily doesn't mean it isn't happening. "Joe is struggling with pushing and keeping hands to self." You bet Joe does that every single day or they wouldn't have mentioned it. "Joe is hitting children." same.

How is your child's behavior at home? Does he have any developmental delays. I find most parents are in denial about the severity of behavior and/or delays until something like this happens. I have let children go when I spoke WEEKLY about behaviors and parents were still shocked.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:31 PM
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Default Omg!

I would have termed immediately. I would not have billed you for it either though.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
My twins (boy and girl) had been going to the same daycare since they were four months old. They are now almost five years old and had just started PreK at the same facility.

Last week my son had a bad day at school were he was written up five times. The first time was for biting in the morning (highly unusual for him) one of his best friends. Said he as playing a game with his friend, and it was an accident. The second time was for kicking a teacher (while she was trying to bring him to the director for 'time-out' for the aforementioned incident. My son said teacher was picking him up because he didn't want to leave the room for punishment and hurt his tummy, so he flailed around causing the kick). The next three time we're all end of day playground related, shoving other children. For these, the writeups were all 15 minutes apart. Said he was removed from group as solution, but obviously reintroduced shortly thereafter. Is it me, or were their diffusion and reintroduction techniques extremely flawed.

The director asked to speak to my wife and I the next day, where she told us that my son was being kicked out of the program. She cited ongoing disruptive behavior as the cause. But this behavior was never discussed with us as parents. These five writeups were highly unusual for my son. The only documented writeups were few and far between, at least 4-6 months since last 'playground' incident. The director said that not all instances were documented because they typically don't write a report of no 'marks are left'. Is this standard? Is this legal? Seems scary as a parent that you wouldn't document these things, especially if you are now substantiating an expulsion on undocumented incidents.

Director said that the 'afternoon' director had conversations with my wife verbally during pickup many times, which wife says never happened. Director mentioned feedback from parent teacher conferences, which was also never the case. We have the Mid and end of year progress report documents that mention nothing if the sort. I told her that if this behavior was really happening, that the school massively let us down as parents, never giving us a chance to address it with our son directly and taken measures to correct. Am I crazy to think that going from no notice of a problem (or few and far between) to expulsion was a crazy leap? My kids were DESTROYED that they were going to need to change schools instead of graduating PreK with all of the children that they had grown up with.

I asked to speak to the owner of the school who made the final decision. The director said he would contact me that night, but he never did. Next morning he called but not to discuss his decision, but to firm up our payment due for the month. I seemed to catch him off guard by asking him if he realized that he was speaking to the father of the child that he just kicked out of his school. He did not. He asked that I give him five minutes so that he could 'pull the file'. He never called back, I suspect out of cowardice.

I decided immediately not to send my children back to the school even though the 'discharge' was delayed until the end of the month. If my son was such a liability, why let him still come to school for two weeks? I suspect so that they could bill me for a whole month. They claim a courtesy.

Two weeks have passed, and I just received a letter from the owner stating that I owe him for the month. And that the 'enrollment guide' that I signed 4 years ago says that I must provide two weeks notice or be responsible for payment. And the fact that I removed my children ahead of the 2-week courtesy, plays no role- says I owe for entire month.

I can't articulate how furious I am with how this all cruelly went down, the impact to my children's emotional state, and now his letter for payment. Especially after blowing off my call, and never having the decency to talk to me before, throughout, or after this all happened.

I am strongly compelled to not pay a dime here. What would you do? I'm willing to go to court.

The funny thing here is that the school had just stopped taking credit cards a few weeks before this all went down. Where they would normally auto charge the card, the no longer could. So I would have paid them with a check this month, and all subsequent months, had this not all went down. Karma?
after he kicked me I would've called for pick up and termed on the spot. I wouldn't have charged though. Maybe because of your long relationship the daycare was being considerate and giving you time to find care for your twins... maybe not. On if you should pay or not it depends on your contract. I personally would not have felt comfortable sending my child back into care but would've given a two week notice and been done with it.
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