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Old 03-25-2018, 08:11 PM
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Default Oppositional Defiance Help

Dcb, age 4, is oppositional defiant. We've made progress in the frequency of the defiance as well as the level of anger exhibited. What we are struggling with currently is the duration. This kid digs his heals in and stays there. What we do or don't do has no effect that we can see.

An example: a day last week Dcb was in attendance for 8 hours. Of those 8 hours, 1 hour was spent eating (2 snacks, 1 meal), 2 hours sleeping, 1.5 hours not being defiant or oppositional, 3.5 hours were spent being defiant and oppositional (2 hours in the afternoon, 1.5 hours in the morning.)

We have utilized active ignoring, positive attention and a sticker chart (token economy.) We do not allow Dcb to dictate our day with his defiance. By that I mean we continue on with our day as if he's not being oppositional or defiant. He is welcome to join us as we move through our schedule but is not forced.

So if he refuses to come to the table for snack/meal time we do not force him (power struggle.) When snack/meal time is done it is done and if he's chosen not to join us during that time he waits until the next meal. Though we do not allow him to play during these times because then everybody else wants to play.

If he refuses to put his shoes/coat on when it is time to go outside, he goes out with us and sits on the deck with his stuff. He is welcome to join us when his stuff is on (yes he can put the items on himself.) If he chooses not to then he does not play. If he chooses not to until 5 min are left for outside time, then he plays for 5 minutes.

I'm mentally drained at this point and need some more tools in my toolkit. If anybody has any tips, tricks, etc for us to use either for ourselves or for working with Dcb we are all ears.

*we is referring to myself and my assistant though I mainly handle the more challenging behaviors in daycare.
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BumbleBee View Post
Dcb, age 4, is oppositional defiant. We've made progress in the frequency of the defiance as well as the level of anger exhibited. What we are struggling with currently is the duration. This kid digs his heals in and stays there. What we do or don't do has no effect that we can see.

An example: a day last week Dcb was in attendance for 8 hours. Of those 8 hours, 1 hour was spent eating (2 snacks, 1 meal), 2 hours sleeping, 1.5 hours not being defiant or oppositional, 3.5 hours were spent being defiant and oppositional (2 hours in the afternoon, 1.5 hours in the morning.)

We have utilized active ignoring, positive attention and a sticker chart (token economy.) We do not allow Dcb to dictate our day with his defiance. By that I mean we continue on with our day as if he's not being oppositional or defiant. He is welcome to join us as we move through our schedule but is not forced.

So if he refuses to come to the table for snack/meal time we do not force him (power struggle.) When snack/meal time is done it is done and if he's chosen not to join us during that time he waits until the next meal. Though we do not allow him to play during these times because then everybody else wants to play.

If he refuses to put his shoes/coat on when it is time to go outside, he goes out with us and sits on the deck with his stuff. He is welcome to join us when his stuff is on (yes he can put the items on himself.) If he chooses not to then he does not play. If he chooses not to until 5 min are left for outside time, then he plays for 5 minutes.

I'm mentally drained at this point and need some more tools in my toolkit. If anybody has any tips, tricks, etc for us to use either for ourselves or for working with Dcb we are all ears.

*we is referring to myself and my assistant though I mainly handle the more challenging behaviors in daycare.
What do his parents do?
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Old 03-25-2018, 10:17 PM
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What do his parents do?
Loss of privileges, time out, spanking.
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:26 AM
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Is this child seeing any type of therapist?

I would think the child's therapist would be full of strategies for managing daily behaviors.
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:34 AM
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I would look up sensory diets. It usually includes heavy work, like pulling a wagon with heavy items in it, weighted blankets, etc. maybe giving him a task may help. Itís obviously different than SPD, autism ADHD but I would start with the sensory diet and see if that helps.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:25 AM
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Is this child seeing any type of therapist?

I would think the child's therapist would be full of strategies for managing daily behaviors.
Yes he is seeing a therapist but it just started recently.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:28 AM
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I would look up sensory diets. It usually includes heavy work, like pulling a wagon with heavy items in it, weighted blankets, etc. maybe giving him a task may help. Itís obviously different than SPD, autism ADHD but I would start with the sensory diet and see if that helps.
Thank you I will look into this!
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Old 03-26-2018, 12:28 PM
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I hope the therapist is good.

I did deal with this once, and I'm just barely over my PTSD from that experience. Mom was in denial, aided and abetted by her pedi, who said dcg was a "normal" five year old. I assure you that if her behavior was normal, nobody would ever have more than one child, if that.

What worked for her was that her misbehavior scored her chores, per my normal for four/five year olds. She disliked chores (at home and here) and passively fought back by being loud and obnoxious instead of getting along with the chore--attention seeking behavior, or just sitting in place, not doing the chore.

Then I said that she'd have to finish her chore before she could be included in the group activity, and I made the group activity the most irresistable thing in the world to her: Dance party with streamers etc. She couldn't bear being left out of a dance party, so she got her chore done fast.

After that, her disobediance went way, way, way down. At least to me. She still gave her mom total garbage, but for me that kid went down to the kinda bearable range after that.

But seriously, it was years before I could look at a photo of her without feeling serious chills. I felt like I was looking at the cover of a Stephen King novel whenever I saw a pic of her, even years after they'd left.

As younger sister was getting old, she began acting the same. And then for some reason, completely incomprehensible to me, mom decided to reproduce again. I did NOT offer a spot to them for the Fall.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mom2Two View Post
I hope the therapist is good.

I did deal with this once, and I'm just barely over my PTSD from that experience. Mom was in denial, aided and abetted by her pedi, who said dcg was a "normal" five year old. I assure you that if her behavior was normal, nobody would ever have more than one child, if that.

What worked for her was that her misbehavior scored her chores, per my normal for four/five year olds. She disliked chores (at home and here) and passively fought back by being loud and obnoxious instead of getting along with the chore--attention seeking behavior, or just sitting in place, not doing the chore.

Then I said that she'd have to finish her chore before she could be included in the group activity, and I made the group activity the most irresistable thing in the world to her: Dance party with streamers etc. She couldn't bear being left out of a dance party, so she got her chore done fast.

After that, her disobediance went way, way, way down. At least to me. She still gave her mom total garbage, but for me that kid went down to the kinda bearable range after that.

But seriously, it was years before I could look at a photo of her without feeling serious chills. I felt like I was looking at the cover of a Stephen King novel whenever I saw a pic of her, even years after they'd left.

As younger sister was getting old, she began acting the same. And then for some reason, completely incomprehensible to me, mom decided to reproduce again. I did NOT offer a spot to them for the Fall.
Wow. I feel your pain in your words. You are brave to work so hard. I got chills too when you mentioned Stephen King's cover. Ugh.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mom2Two View Post
I hope the therapist is good.
I'm giving it some time because therapy just started recently.

Thank you for your detailed response. You have given me great ideas on how to further the progress we've made (not as much progress as I'd like but progress is progress.)
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:52 AM
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A lot of kids diagnosed with ODD actually have fetal alcohol syndrome. Most kids with FASD do not exhibit any physical abnormalities. Has he ever been tested for this? In the case of FASD his brain literally cannot do the things normal kids brains can. Try and do some research on it to find more information.

I also think a therapist should be involved.
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:09 AM
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A lot of kids diagnosed with ODD actually have fetal alcohol syndrome. Most kids with FASD do not exhibit any physical abnormalities. Has he ever been tested for this? In the case of FASD his brain literally cannot do the things normal kids brains can. Try and do some research on it to find more information.

I also think a therapist should be involved.
This is false. Fetal alcohol syndrome is on a spectrum of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders with fetal alcohol syndrome being the worse case scenario. It actually does exhibit physical abnormalities as smaller heads, shorter height, small weight gain, facial differences and so forth. I donít think we should be jumping from ODD to FASD unless we know his mother absolutely drank during her pregnancy. This disorder is not caused by a glass of wine here or there but chronic usage of alcohol while pregnant.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:57 PM
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This is false. Fetal alcohol syndrome is on a spectrum of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders with fetal alcohol syndrome being the worse case scenario. It actually does exhibit physical abnormalities as smaller heads, shorter height, small weight gain, facial differences and so forth. I donít think we should be jumping from ODD to FASD unless we know his mother absolutely drank during her pregnancy. This disorder is not caused by a glass of wine here or there but chronic usage of alcohol while pregnant.
I thought all of these things too until I started researching it. It is much more common than you think and It can be caused by as little as two drinks in one sitting.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/facts.html
https://canfasd.ca/topics/basic-information/


ďThe presence or absence of facial features depends on whether alcohol was consumed in a very narrow window of time during pregnancy. It does NOT reflect the degree of brain disorder. The vast majority of people with FASD are not visibly different; you cannot see FASD.Although in a very small percentage of people the face may look different, the important fact is that in all individuals with FASD, the function of the brain is permanently affected.Ē
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:02 PM
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I was reading about both ODD and FASD and came across this info. It's interesting

https://www.mofas.org/wp-content/upl...-4-29-2016.pdf
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:09 PM
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Have you tried any social story cards that are about the daily routine? It sounds like that child may find transitions stressful. We are starting to use social story cards for a lot of behavioural issues and we are finding them quite helpful, because they have pictures of what the child is supposed to be doing and what not to do. It's all about visuals, which can really help children at that age. You can get quite a lot of social story cards on teacherspayteachers.com.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:00 AM
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I was reading about both ODD and FASD and came across this info. It's interesting

https://www.mofas.org/wp-content/upl...-4-29-2016.pdf
I came across this info too! It is really blowing my mind as to how many kids are possibly being misdiagnosed because most people think kids with FASD have certain physical features. I think it is much more common than we think.
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Old 03-29-2018, 06:40 AM
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I came across this info too! It is really blowing my mind as to how many kids are possibly being misdiagnosed because most people think kids with FASD have certain physical features. I think it is much more common than we think.

Ariana, I have a friend who works for the CAS, she says the research is at least 70% of the children placed for adoption in Ontario have FAS. Sometimes it is not figured out until JK.
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:31 AM
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It really sounds like you're doing everything you can, the little guy needs to find ways to react differently than he does to situations and conflicts ... that takes a long time (years). My mom taught my son to take deep focused breaths, maybe that would help - took the focus off the situation, allowed him to back down a little. Of course, once my son found out the very loud breaths were kind of annoying he made a point of doing them every time he was mad, and right in my face. Ugh.

My suggestion would be to hug him, touch him, compliment him, and love on him as much as possible. He needs it, he's struggling more than the adults trying to work with him (not that he'll admit that any time soon!), and all the consequences, even though he's earned them and they shouldn't change, don't feel good when really he's just being the best self he's capable of right now.

I have a son like this, he's 15 now, most of the time he's great but it's a work in progress for/with him. It's exhausting and hurtful and hard for both of us, but he did tell me he's glad I stuck to the house rules and didn't let him off easy as he's grown up.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:42 PM
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Ariana, I have a friend who works for the CAS, she says the research is at least 70% of the children placed for adoption in Ontario have FAS. Sometimes it is not figured out until JK.
So sad I wonder about Reactive Attachment Disorder as well (a common disorder in adoptive kids and foster kids) How many disorders are being misdiagnosed. There really needs to be more education on this. I had no idea how common it is and got no info on this during both of my pregnancies. The focus was all on SIDS.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ac114 View Post
This is false. Fetal alcohol syndrome is on a spectrum of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders with fetal alcohol syndrome being the worse case scenario. It actually does exhibit physical abnormalities as smaller heads, shorter height, small weight gain, facial differences and so forth. I donít think we should be jumping from ODD to FASD unless we know his mother absolutely drank during her pregnancy. This disorder is not caused by a glass of wine here or there but chronic usage of alcohol while pregnant.
Anecdotally speaking? My kid was dx with ODD (though she seems to be mellowing out). I do not drink at ALL and never did during pregnancy either.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:28 PM
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:18 PM
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Anecdotally speaking? My kid was dx with ODD (though she seems to be mellowing out). I do not drink at ALL and never did during pregnancy either.
Yes it is definitely a diagnosable disorder. I am certainly not saying that all kids with ODD have FASD I was simply adding more info in case it *might* be relevant to this situation.
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Old 04-03-2018, 05:47 PM
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Anecdotally speaking? My kid was dx with ODD (though she seems to be mellowing out). I do not drink at ALL and never did during pregnancy either.
ODD is a real diagnosis, but often misdiagnosed in that they miss that itís part of FAS. Just like kids with autism can have comorbidities of anxiety or other conditions, a comorbidity of FAS is ODD. All comorbidities of conditions can be stand alone diagnosis as well.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ariana View Post
A lot of kids diagnosed with ODD actually have fetal alcohol syndrome. Most kids with FASD do not exhibit any physical abnormalities. Has he ever been tested for this? In the case of FASD his brain literally cannot do the things normal kids brains can. Try and do some research on it to find more information.

I also think a therapist should be involved.
I don't think he's been tested for FASD. Thank you for the info. Yes a therapist is involved, just started therapy recently.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jdy2222 View Post
It really sounds like you're doing everything you can, the little guy needs to find ways to react differently than he does to situations and conflicts ... that takes a long time (years). My mom taught my son to take deep focused breaths, maybe that would help - took the focus off the situation, allowed him to back down a little. Of course, once my son found out the very loud breaths were kind of annoying he made a point of doing them every time he was mad, and right in my face. Ugh.

My suggestion would be to hug him, touch him, compliment him, and love on him as much as possible. He needs it, he's struggling more than the adults trying to work with him (not that he'll admit that any time soon!), and all the consequences, even though he's earned them and they shouldn't change, don't feel good when really he's just being the best self he's capable of right now.

I have a son like this, he's 15 now, most of the time he's great but it's a work in progress for/with him. It's exhausting and hurtful and hard for both of us, but he did tell me he's glad I stuck to the house rules and didn't let him off easy as he's grown up.
Thank you so much! Amazing advice and we sincerely appreciate it!
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